Post by Mother Starlight on May 25, 2015 4:59:26 GMT
The IRC channel is #backstage on irc.psigenix.net.
Spoilered because long.
12:16 -!- MotherStarlight changed the topic of #backstage to: MWF OOC -- Channel is (hopefully) logged
12:24 -!- kappabeta has joined #backstage
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12:35 -!- Adelene has joined #backstage
12:36 <~MotherStarlight> Hi.
12:37 < Adelene> Hi :)
12:38 < Teceler> Hi, all.
13:07 < Teceler> It is very quiet here.
13:08 <~MotherStarlight> Yep.
13:08 <~MotherStarlight> I imagine it'll warm up when we have something to talk about.
13:09 < Teceler> probably
13:17 < Adelene> I can babble about Lurker if you want, she's a bit stalled right now but she has plot planned. :D
13:18 < Teceler> If you would like to talk about Lurker, I at least would find that interesting
13:18 < Adelene> (By 'stalled' I mean, like, she's busy learning to read and I'm probably already pushing credibility too far by saying it's only going to take her two weeks to get to the point of being able to read her first spellbook.)
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13:21 <~MotherStarlight> Well, there's a tradeoff between time spent learning to read and time spent actually reading, and the optimum if you only need to read one book might turn out to be relatively short.
13:21 < Teceler> If you want an educators opinion on how long it takes kids to learn how to read I can consult the one here when she wakes up, but you've probably done research
13:22 <~MotherStarlight> How long do you think it would take you to get through a book in a language you don't know, splitting your time between studying the language and studying the book however you see fit?
13:22 < Adelene> I haven't been able to find anything, actually, everything I've been able to dig up just says 'it varies'.
13:22 <~MotherStarlight> *don't know _yet_
13:22 < Teceler> There probably is also some factor of how much consulting a dictionary when you hit a word you don't know the spellbook would accept
13:22 < Adelene> Me personally, more than two weeks, I kind of suck at languages.
13:23 < Teceler> I'll ask her when she wakes up, then. She could probably at least give a range
13:23 < Adelene> *nod*
13:24 < Adelene> Lurker isn't really trying to read *in general*, she just wants to be able to read spellbooks even if it takes several days for each one.
13:24 < Teceler> Worst case scenario, you could probably say time passed faster for her than it did for the forum
13:25 < Adelene> *nod*
13:25 < Teceler> I am getting an amusing image of her winding up being able to read with an extremely specialized vocabulary
13:25 < Adelene> *giggle*
13:26 < Adelene> I'd take time dialation if it was offered but I already feel kinda bad about opening the door to translation fails (whether that would have happened anyway or not) so I'm a bit leery of it.
13:26 <~MotherStarlight> I already mentioned time dilation with Gray Librarian, though that might be attributed to the Library being weird.
13:27 <~MotherStarlight> also, Did You Know you can emote with /me?
13:27 * MotherStarlight demonstrates
13:27 < Adelene> Yeah, my brain isn't so great about changing formats for different contexts though and asterix form is more generally robust.
13:28 <~MotherStarlight> fair enough.
13:28 <~MotherStarlight> if I were running Carp, I'd say there's a reading skill and she gets faster as she exercises it.
13:28 < Adelene> Yup, that's DF canon more or less.
13:28 <~MotherStarlight> dunno how you break into a skill initially though.
13:29 < Adelene> There's a reader skill but no books quite yet, they'll be in the next version and presumbaly work the same way as any other skill.
13:29 < Adelene> DF in general says that any person can use any skill even if they've never done it before, they'll just be very slow and the results will be low-quality.
13:30 < Adelene> (Also this assumes they have the tools, but that's not relevant here.)
13:31 < Adelene> I'm more playing the DR mechanics as an abstraction that lets the player interact with the place, rather than being the real physics, though.
13:32 < Adelene> *DF
13:32 < Adelene> I am not very brain right now, sorry :P
13:32 < Teceler> I am vaguely recalling there being some use for reading in Adventure Mode, but that may be out of date
13:33 < Adelene> In adventure mode you can find and read necromancy books to become a necromancer, I think. I've never played adventure, though.
13:33 < Teceler> Okay, I asked, and she wants a clearer definition of 'reading', in the sense of complexity level
13:33 < Adelene> Being able to get through Hop On Pop.
13:34 < Adelene> Specifically, with access to it through the learning process, not necessarily any other book even a Seus one.
13:35 < Teceler> yeah, that sounds like what I remember. I haven't played much adventure mode, but that was in the guide I read
13:36 < Teceler> She says, 'maybe a year, that's first grade material', but I don't know how much that goes down when it's the only thing she's doing
13:37 < Adelene> mm.
13:38 < Teceler> she also says that motivation can affect it, and related skills can affect it
13:38 < Teceler> 'is the language they're learning to read in more like English or Spanish'?
13:38 < Teceler> ...which, she has a point, English is awful that way
13:39 < Adelene> I mean, it's a fantasy language and I haven't conlang'd it, but it's probably safe to assume it's simple and also that the written form is optimized to be relatively easy to learn given the people who use it don't have formal schools.
13:40 <~MotherStarlight> That's a really good point
13:40 < Teceler> She's saying a few weeks for an adult with motivation, and I haven't gotten a response on the language yet -- a few weeks at half-an-hour to an hour a day
13:41 < Adelene> It may actually be more hieroglyph-like, I've considered that option.
13:41 < Adelene> Oh cool, so two weeks is actually a good estimate.
13:41 < Adelene> (She's spending way more than an hour a day on it but shes also not, uh, actually fluent in the language.)
13:42 < Teceler> 'you would have to learn the sound each letter/symbol makes, and if they change when you combine them. You have understand that the symbols contain meaning and print conventions (left to right / right to left)'
13:43 < Adelene> *nod*
13:44 < Teceler> It also depends on how good the are at it natively, and the vocabulary she needs
13:44 < Teceler> 'would she already know the vocabulary the book uses, that makes a big difference'
13:45 < Adelene> I'm not actually clear on how that works, for spellbooks.
13:45 < Teceler> 'if it contains unfamiliar vocabulary (that she has to learn by decoding the text) it will be harder'
13:45 < Adelene> It sounded to me like you didn't need any particular vocabulary at all, but, like.
13:46 < Teceler> MotherStarlight?
13:46 -!- Hadassah has joined #backstage
13:47 < Hadassah> Hiyas all
13:47 < Teceler> (there was also some about how she could be really good at it if that worked better and that there's only so much information you can cram at once)
13:47 < Teceler> Hi
13:48 < Adelene> I dunno that Lurker's particularly talented at reading, but she is good at self-teaching or she wouldn't be able to use language at all.
13:48 < Adelene> Hi Hasassah :)
13:49 < Adelene> *growls at keyboard*
13:49 < Teceler> is that self-teaching specifically or learning in general, do you think?
13:49 < Adelene> Both, really.
13:50 < Adelene> Lurker is way smart along that sort of axis - remember that she's literally the only kobold in her tribe that can speak, she picked that up on her own and has managed to keep the skill with very little opportunity to practice it.
13:50 <~MotherStarlight> *back*
13:50 < Teceler> How did the other kobold -- the mage? -- in her tribe learn?
13:51 < Adelene> Nonverbal methods, Carp magic does allow for that, it's just inefficient and risky.
13:51 < Teceler> and yeah, that's really impressive, thinking about it. Though she is probably getting a bunch more practice now
13:51 < Adelene> *nodnod*
13:51 < Teceler> ah
13:51 < Teceler> We were wondering how much vocabulary spellbooks needed
13:52 < Adelene> Carp magic involves shooting beams of light out of your hands at whatever you're casting on, and if someone sticks their hand in the beam they can kind of see what you're doing.
13:52 <~MotherStarlight> I'll say you don't strictly need any particular vocabulary, but reading speed is proportional to vocabulary size
13:52 <~MotherStarlight> so learning more vocabulary *helps*
13:53 < Teceler> Porportional the size of the /relevant/ vocabulary, sure, because you have to work out what unfamiliar vocabulary means
13:53 < Adelene> It doesn't tell them why you're doing that as opposed to anything else or what similar options might be safe or unsafe, and Carp magic kills mages who annoy it, but for simple stuff it works ok.
13:53 < Teceler> That is an interesting magic system. I don't think I've mentioned that before, but it is.
13:53 < Adelene> ^^
13:55 < Teceler> and vocabulary size is generally a decent heuristic for reading skill, but with regards to a specific thing it is more relevant how much of the vocabulary it uses is known
13:55 < Hadassah> I agree, and I love how consistent you play the character. Its a joy to read.
13:55 < Adelene> :D
13:55 < Teceler> Though it might also be useful to know how hard it is to work out unfamiliar vocabulary for context
13:55 < Teceler> *from context
13:55 < Adelene> It's going to be really funny if Lurker ever visits Hadassah, by the way.
13:55 <~MotherStarlight> relevant vocab: I was thinking more along the lines of the spellbook uses whatever vocabulary you have, so more available words means it can encode more bits of information per word
13:55 <~MotherStarlight> which is completely unrealistic, but
13:56 < Teceler> they are magic spellbooks
13:56 < Adelene> Nah, up goer five is a thing.
13:56 < Hadassah> Hahaha
13:56 <~MotherStarlight> spellbooks are native to a world where literacy is all or nothing, and this whole thing is totally ad hoc
13:57 < Adelene> It does sound like two weeks is not actually ridiculous, given she's entirely willing to spend an entire day sounding out Hop On Pop if that'll get her the magic she wants.
13:57 < Teceler> Lurker is sufficiently difficult to read that I wouldn't necessarily call it a 'joy' (I know Thorn would be interacting with her more, or trying to, if she could understand Lurker better), but other than that, yes, what Hadassah said.
13:58 < Adelene> ^^
13:58 < Adelene> Lurker is going to get fluencied a few days after she picks up her first Dungeon spell, so that will help things. ^^
13:59 < Hadassah> Funny, I can read Lurker so much easier than I can, say, Lantern or Orz. Is she going to be going on a world tour, so to speak?
13:59 < Adelene> (Maybe more than a few days, I'd have to check my math, but not more than a couple weeks anyway.)
13:59 < Teceler> She is /interesting/ to read, and enjoyable in senses other than that one, though. (And if Thorn had more investment she would likely try harder, but she does not at the moment).
13:59 < Adelene> Lurker will eventually be gratuitously magical and tour-inclined, yes. :D
14:00 < Teceler> The fluencying will probably be useful for a number of things
14:00 < Adelene> I don't have any specific reason for her to want to visit Pantheon but she won't hesitate if one appears, once she can.
14:00 < Adelene> *nod* re: fluency
14:02 < Adelene> It is going to be a plot point soonish that Lurker can't perfectly keep the invisibility-to-magic turned off even if she wants to, though. :D
14:02 < Teceler> Thorn will strongly recommend, if consulted and Lurker is considering it, (she knows very little about interdimensional transport besides that it is apparently possible at the moment, but ignoring that), that Eclipse /not/ be on the tour. :P
14:02 < Hadassah> Haha, well Hadassah would welcome her, though Hadassah doesn't have a bed for her to stay in.
14:02 < Adelene> *nod* Lurker will definitely be inclined to listen to, and probably to solicit, that sort of advice.
14:03 < Adelene> Beds are minimally important, Lurker will be far too gratuitously magic for that to be an inconvenience by that point. ^^
14:05 < Teceler> Well, there's the security-related paranoia (I am currently having trouble convincing them not to try to disconnect the forum via melting down the things it connected to in case that helps), /and/ there's the local exsurgent issue
14:07 < Teceler> 'given that she's already good at language, and a relatively simple text, two weeks might be believable'
14:07 < Adelene> Cool. :3
14:08 < Teceler> I did not mention your two-weeks estimate, so
14:08 < Adelene> *nod*
14:09 -!- linkhyrule5 has joined #backstage
14:09 < linkhyrule5> heylo
14:09 < Adelene> Hi!
14:09 < Teceler> hello
14:09 < Hadassah> Hiyas
14:09 < linkhyrule5> I suppose this is my owning up - in case there's anyone who didn't know, I'm Meletiti Entelecheiai
14:10 < linkhyrule5> (yes I can type that correctly on the first try every time :P )
14:10 < kappabeta> <3
14:10 < kappabeta> talent!
14:10 < linkhyrule5> loool
14:10 < Teceler> (that is a useful skill for you to have!)
14:10 < Adelene> *chuckle*
14:10 < linkhyrule5> So while i have everyone's attenion - what'd people think of my creation myth?
14:10 < Teceler> I owe you that response, don't I, oops, sorry
14:10 < kappabeta> I liked
14:10 < linkhyrule5> I'm kind of hoping it doesn't put people to sleep, since I'm hoping to bundle it up and send it somewhere
14:11 < linkhyrule5> Teceler - do I know you under another name?
14:11 < linkhyrule5> I'm guessing you're Thorn?
14:11 < Teceler> I'm Thorn's player
14:11 < Teceler> up
14:11 < Teceler> *yup
14:11 < linkhyrule5> yuss
14:11 < Adelene> I kinda skipped it, Lurker wouldn't've been able to make much sense of it.
14:11 < linkhyrule5> Ah, shame
14:11 < linkhyrule5> I'd appreciate your OOC critique
14:11 < Teceler> I felt like the bit at the end (I would have to dig it up to tell you exactly where, but after you described the planes) got a little incoherent
14:11 < linkhyrule5> (and I do mean critique here, because I kind of felt it was a little clunky but didn't know how to fix it)
14:11 < Adelene> I'm not brain enough to read something like that right now, maybe tomorrow or something.
14:11 < linkhyrule5> ^ Yeah, it feels al ittle rushed at the end
14:12 < linkhyrule5> loool, kay
14:12 < Teceler> or was hard to understand, or something
14:12 < linkhyrule5> If you can tell me exactly where later that'd be cool
14:12 < linkhyrule5> but yeah, that's basically how Entelechy started.
14:12 < Teceler> The bit where it says something happened to the world of matter, I got lost
14:12 < linkhyrule5> (There will be a post in the "intelligent species" thread that is lilke, 50% DO NOT MESS WITH DRAGONS)
14:13 < Teceler> 'Presumably the burgeoning draconic empire learned quickly not to interfere with nucleosynthesis' made me giggle, though
14:13 < Teceler> (Is that a bad idea, then? :P)
14:13 < linkhyrule5> Like I mentioned - there are loooots of ways to screw things up in ways that destroy random concepts or accidentally the Andromeda Galaxy
14:14 < linkhyrule5> There's probably some draconic emperor's name written in the Cosmic Microwave Background, too, as a really gaudy epitaph
14:14 < Teceler> Ah, is that dragon-related specifically? I thought that was general
14:14 < Teceler> ...hee
14:14 < linkhyrule5> haha
14:14 < linkhyrule5> THat's not dragon-related specifically
14:14 < linkhyrule5> it's jsut, dragons are old /and/ thnk faster than most humans
14:14 < linkhyrule5> they've had more time to screw things up
14:15 < Teceler> ah
14:15 < linkhyrule5> Most of the Earth-related disasters were human-caused
14:15 < linkhyrule5> Hm... so, I'll try rewriting the second bit, and explaining Matter more
14:15 < linkhyrule5> The /idea/ that I'm trying ot get across, if you have any suggestions, is that basically:
14:15 < linkhyrule5> Matter is self-reliance, so it created a plane that wasn't dependent on other magic
14:16 < linkhyrule5> The simplest such magicless plane that still has sapient life in it (anthropic principle) is ours.
14:16 < Teceler> Looking at it, it was "-- But that would be far too complex. Such a world would be inelegant, expensive, unstable.
14:16 < Teceler> And so the world of matter fell, to the simplest rules that could recreate all the elements, to the rules of reality that could reproduce the world without recourse to the rest of the Truth. And wood was given to the seed that would become the universe, and the universe was born." specifically that confused me
14:16 < Teceler> ah
14:16 < linkhyrule5> So it generated the laws of physics organically from the laws of metaphysics
14:16 < linkhyrule5> (I'm really trying to make Enteelchy rules as simple and self-consistent as possible. I'm a physicist, it's athing)
14:17 <~MotherStarlight> "And wood was given to the seed" -- is this just a metaphor, or is it referring to the element of Wood?
14:17 < linkhyrule5> Ah, I shoudl warn you - I may need to leave
14:17 < linkhyrule5> It's Wood, the element
14:17 < Teceler> incidentally, I kind of liked the mix of traditional and nontraditional elements, and how they seemed to be fairly comprehensive. Though metal hanging out on it's own if vaguely annoying, but I bet that's a sentiment ic, too
14:17 < linkhyrule5> Wood is given to the seed, and the seed grows - does the big bang
14:17 < linkhyrule5> It's a sentiment IC, yeah
14:18 <~MotherStarlight> I'd capitalize Wood then
14:18 < linkhyrule5> Not quite ethereal like time/space/etc, not quite totally universal, /why does it have a physical form at all if it's connections!/
14:19 < Teceler> having simple and self-consistent rules is always useful for world-building
14:19 < linkhyrule5> Teceler - thanks! I kind of grabbed all the existing elements from a mix of cultures, Wood and Metal and Lightning in particular came from various Five ELements definitions
14:19 < linkhyrule5> That and - the original reason I made this system was because I was tired of /not knowing my character's magic/.
14:19 < Teceler> that would be annoying
14:19 < linkhyrule5> Like, D&D, it's all "cast Fireball!" and you have /no idea/ what your character was doing
14:20 < linkhyrule5> So I wanted to make a system where I would be as good a mage as my character
14:20 < linkhyrule5> and that meant writing down /all/ the laws of magic, with enough depth that I could make my own spells
14:20 < linkhyrule5> that big image in front? Really is a spell of perfect comprehension in-system, though I make no guarntees about how accurate/effective/efficient/elegant it is :P
14:21 < Teceler> While you're here, Thorn is contemplating messaging ME to ask what he's planning with regards to Cassandra, because she feels vaguely responsible for that mess.
14:21 < linkhyrule5> actually leaving in a sec, but -
14:21 < Teceler> I assume some fraction of that requires consulting with Grigori's player, though
14:21 < Teceler> okay
14:21 < linkhyrule5> Basically, "freeing someone from slavery" is worth actually spending some power on, and it's probably not too hard (he thinks) to set up a Mania-drip for her if he uses his magic to do it
14:22 < linkhyrule5> The fact that "Mania drip" is a coherent concept is basically all he needs for that to be possible
14:22 < linkhyrule5> And obv we'd have to consult with Grigori's player, yeah
14:22 < Teceler> ...except that he's going to run into that brick wall with Darkness, isn't he?
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14:23 < linkhyrule5> yep!
14:23 < Adelene> If you want to have him do that in a fairly expensive way and keep looking for alternatives, Carp magic will be able to replicate it costlessly eventually assuming Carp magic works there at all (and assuming Lurker can get there to cast it)
14:23 < linkhyrule5> So ME will have her first real challenge
14:23 < linkhyrule5> *his
14:23 < linkhyrule5> (though on arandom note, I don't hink he cares very much, he's kind of male-by-default)
14:23 < linkhyrule5> anywho relaly need to go now, bbl
14:23 < Teceler> (I had a moment of 'have I been misgendering em?')
14:23 < Teceler> okay, good luck with whatever you're doing
14:25 < Adelene> Lurker's gratuitous-magic gig is going to mostly be using various magic systems to jailbreak each other. For Carp in particular, you can't do human experimentation without killing people even if the spells inolved are benign, but once Lurker knows someone who can remove Carp spells from people that won't be an issue.
14:26 -!- linkhyrule5 has quit
14:26 < Adelene> (Which then allows her to learn how to set peoples' max and current MP, among other tricks. :D )
14:27 < Teceler> ...such cross-magic cheatery. :P
14:27 < Adelene> Yup!
14:30 < kappabeta> http://imgur.com/NJ2pyVZ lookit Swish, everybody!
14:31 < Adelene> cutie!
14:31 < kappabeta> :D
14:31 < sonatagreen> eeeee
14:32 < kappabeta> I am so proud.
14:33 < Teceler> such pretty
14:36 < Adelene> ...oh! That would solve that one problem, wouldn't it.
14:36 < Teceler> ?
14:37 < Adelene> Carp magic allows for changing objects' properties; there's no obvious reason that you couldn't use it to give a rock the properties of steel.
14:37 < Adelene> Which is bad.
14:37 < Adelene> But, if you do that even to a sword-shaped rock, you don't actually get a sharp rock-with-steel-properties.
14:38 < Adelene> So you'd have to sharpen it, which seems like it would count as breaking and therefore lose you the spell.
14:38 < Teceler> ...wouldn't that be really heavy (depending on the rock I guess)?
14:38 < Teceler> ah
14:38 < Adelene> You can also change the weight, so that's not an issue.
14:38 < Teceler> ah
14:38 < sonatagreen> What if you start with a flint knife?
14:39 < Teceler> you can't pre-sharpen the rock you want to use? I support that's more niche and thus less concerning, though, even if you can
14:39 < Teceler> *suppose
14:39 < Adelene> *nod* I'd say that that would work, but it'd dull eventually.
14:39 < Adelene> And might well break for magic purposes even before you needed to sharpen it; it doesn't take much.
14:40 < sonatagreen> and you can't do any maintenance, right
14:40 < Adelene> I'm not sure what kind of maintenance kinves need, you could like rub oil on it or something no problem though.
14:41 < Teceler> but actually using the knife risks breaking the spell?
14:41 < Adelene> Anything that removes part of the original knife, even a small part, counts as breaking.
14:42 < Teceler> and the magic can't make it sturdier very welll
14:42 < Teceler> *well?
14:42 < Adelene> Unless that part was explicitly excluded from the spell's definition of 'the knife', in which case it wouldn't be affected by the spell in most cases.
14:42 < Adelene> It can make it sturdier within the limits of what mundane matter can do.
14:43 < Teceler> ...wait, if, does this have atomic mechanisms? I'm not sure how much the atomic structure of solids changes just sitting around, but I feel like that might be a thing
14:43 < Teceler> *does Carp have
14:43 < Adelene> There's also a tech limitation - thinking about it, a diamond knife would actually get around most of this but I doubt they have a way to realize that.
14:44 < Teceler> how much would obsidian? That might be more likely to be an idea
14:44 < Adelene> Internal changes don't count as breaking, you can enspell a normal rock and reasonably expect it to still be magic in 100 years if nobody knocks a chunk off of it.
14:45 < Teceler> That makes sense. Would things like rust be a problem for magic purposes?
14:46 < Adelene> Yup.
14:46 < Teceler> (tell me if I'm asking too many questions)
14:46 < Adelene> Something turning into rust wouldn't break it but the rust flaking off would.
14:46 < Teceler> that makes sense.
14:47 < Teceler> if someone enspelled some clay and turned into pottery would the magic stick as long as they used all of it?
14:47 < Adelene> As another edge case that seems relevant here: If you have an enclosed room you can magic the air in that room and the spell won't break until someone opens the door.
14:48 < Teceler> but once you open the door diffusion starts. That makes sense.
14:48 < Adelene> If they enspelled the clay right before baking it and made sure it wasn't, like, attached to whatever it baked on (hard, I think?) then yeah, that'd work.
14:49 < Adelene> But enspelling clay and then working it wouldn't, youd break the spell the first time you got some stuck on your hands.
14:49 < Adelene> (Also, in the cast-right-before-baking case you'd have to specify that the water in the clay didnt' count as part of it, which would be hard.)
14:50 < Teceler> (I was about to ask that, because my question was more if the evaporation would count, which it apparently does)
14:50 < Adelene> You can also enspell a lake, I think, so some *small* amount of evaporation shouldn't count, but you can't count on a lake staying enspelled like you can count on a rock doing.
14:51 < Teceler> I would think any rivers feeding off of it would break that. Or is this more one that doesn't?
14:52 < Adelene> A river would break it, yeah.
14:52 < Teceler> what happens if you try to enspell a mountain?
14:53 < Adelene> That'd be a royal pain to do in the first place, but it'd work for a reasonable amount of time if you were smart about what you told the spell to consider as part of the mountain.
14:53 < Teceler> or a rock that was then put in a river? Or just out in the open where it rains frequently?
14:53 < Adelene> (Like, you'd have to worry about tree roots and boulders knocking chunks off of
14:53 < Teceler> that makes sense
14:54 < Adelene> ...cat...
14:54 < Adelene> River rock would last until the first good knock by another rock, rain rock would last longer but rain could break a rock spell eventually.
14:55 < Teceler> so erosion breaks it, but slowly.
14:55 < Adelene> *nod*
14:56 * Teceler tries to think of more edge cases
14:56 < Adelene> The rain rock would be a slower version of the evaporating lake.
14:56 < sonatagreen> It seems like depending on the spell you could just enchant the inner part of the rock, and then it'd be a lot more robust
14:57 < Teceler> how long would those take to break, do you think?
14:57 < Adelene> Depending on what you want the spell to do, yeah. Trouble is that spells can only make effects at the edges of the things they're cast on.
14:58 < Adelene> How long would which take to break?
14:58 < Teceler> And eventually it would erode down to the inner part and you would have the same problem, I would think
14:58 < Adelene> *nod*
14:58 < Adelene> That'd take a long, long time under most circumstances though.
14:58 < Teceler> the rain rock and the evaporating lake, mostly. On a scale of years/decades/centuries/etc
14:59 < Adelene> The lake would be weeks to months, the rock presumably many years in a normal outdoor environment but I don't know much about how that sort of weathering works.
14:59 < Teceler> fair enough
15:01 < Teceler> if you enspelled molten glass and managed to use exactly the amount you enspelled for whatever you're doing (this seems like a silly thing to do, but nevermind that for the moment), it would hold after the glass cooled, correct?
15:01 < Adelene> Yup.
15:02 < sonatagreen> Can you reshape an enchanted object by melting and re-solidifying it?
15:03 < Adelene> If you don't lose any of it. And for most spells you'd end up with it being unusable even if it's not technically broken.
15:03 < Teceler> what does happen if you enspell something alive? I imagine you could specify something well enough that, say, hair falling off wouldn't matter, but things like dead skin and blood would be harder
15:03 < Adelene> Alive things don't break unless you kill them, because handwave.
15:03 < Teceler> also waste
15:03 < Teceler> ah
15:04 < Teceler> if they're a special class of thing as far as the magic is concerned that sort of makes sense
15:04 < sonatagreen> I feel like the correct interpretation here is "the concept of a single object is coherent in this world, because videogame physics"
15:04 -!- MTC has quit
15:05 < Adelene> Re: unusable, most spells are designed to react to being touched at various places on the outside of the object, or to emit light or sound or whatever at places on the outside of the object. If you melt an enspelled object down, those places cease to exist, so the intended input/output can't happen any more.
15:05 < Teceler> The obvious question is then, what happens if you enspell a caterpillar? Or a tadpole, or something else that undergoes significant metamorphosis
15:05 < Adelene> When you cast a spell on the object you have to specify what you mean by 'the object', it doesn't lean on pre-existing definitions.
15:06 < Adelene> Morphing animals don't break their spells but may run into trouble with spell-specified structures not existing any more.
15:06 * Teceler nods.
15:07 < Adelene> In the caterpillar case in particular my understanding is that they kind of -- goop, and rebuild from scratch? In which case if you enspelled a caterpillar to take spell input from its legs that wouldn't still work on the resulting butterfly.
15:08 < Teceler> How dangerous is a spell breaking to the mage, exactly? Lurking said something about that, but I had trouble with understanding it. Does it depend on the spell?
15:08 < Teceler> ah
15:08 < Adelene> Breaking a spell is perfectly safe for the caster.
15:08 < Teceler> but if it was 'this creature will glow' it might still work?
15:08 < Adelene> *nod*
15:08 < Teceler> ah
15:09 < Teceler> for some reason I had the impression it was dangerous. Was that something else?
15:09 < Adelene> The thing with spells killing their caster is that - if you think of a spell as a program, in a case where it would run into a fatal error, the error is in fact fatal.
15:09 < Teceler> for the caster, not just the spell?
15:09 < Adelene> Yeah.
15:10 < Adelene> For miscasts, there's a grace period of at least a day but no more than three days, where you can break it and the caster will be okay; that's what Lurker's mage was woried about needing to do.
15:11 < Teceler> it seems like most things spells do don't involve the caster (unless they're designed to), but that one does?
15:11 < Adelene> *nod*
15:11 < Teceler> why didn't they wind up breaking it? Other than plot reasons
15:12 < Adelene> Well, not everything that doesn't do what the caster was planning is actually a miscast.
15:12 < Teceler> what's the distinction?
15:13 < Adelene> Whether it kills the caster, mostly. But happy accidents are often useful, so there is some advantage to taking the risk and seeing if you have something you might want more of.
15:13 < Teceler> ah
15:14 < Teceler> so if it doesn't seem like it would run into something that would kill them, they might keep it?
15:14 < Adelene> Something like that.
15:15 < Adelene> There's no firm dividing line but the more sensible the unexpected result is, the more likely it is to be a happy accident rather than a miscast.
15:15 < Teceler> (except then outside context problems)
15:15 < Adelene> And the forum did seem pretty sensible.
15:15 < Teceler> in relation to the original spell?
15:16 < Adelene> In general. It's a thing that does things that make sense as something that someone might want to do.
15:16 < Teceler> ah
15:16 < kappabeta> XD
15:17 < Adelene> (Also I think the mage in question was, like - pretty low standing in the tribe to begin with.)
15:17 < Teceler> (I was just thinking, 'by what definition is this forum sensible?' that might be Thorn bleeding through some, but)
15:17 < Adelene> heh.
15:17 < Teceler> (...ah)
15:18 < Teceler> (wouldn't someone who could do magic be more important? --I guess not if he wasn't very good at it)
15:18 < Adelene> Yeah, actually, now that I specificaly ask Lurker about it, it seems that the mage's last, like, four or five magics had failed, and the chief was getting pretty fed up with them.
15:19 < Teceler> ...how much in the way of resources does spell-casting take? I didn't get the impression it was much
15:19 < Adelene> Especially since a mage who can't cast reliably can't cast on people.
15:19 < Adelene> Not much at all.
15:19 < Adelene> Usually none, sometimes some reusable crystals if you're enspelling something large.
15:20 < Teceler> So it was just that they needed effective magic for things and the mage seemed like e could and then repeatedly couldn't, and that was frustrating?
15:21 < Adelene> That, and one of kobold mages' primary responsibilities is giving little kobolds the illusion spell, so a mage who can't cast on people and is looking like they're not going to be able to learn how to is pretty useless to a tribe.
15:22 < Teceler> and if they aren't very good at much else... I see.
15:22 < Adelene> (You miscast on a person, somebody dies, it's kind of a big deal.)
15:48 < Teceler> I'm trying to remember if there is anyone else on the forum with indentured servitude/slavery or 'not considered a person' problems. I have Cassandra (the subject of the message), Hadassah, and Swish-sort-of, but I feel like I'm forgetting someone.
15:49 < Adelene> Lurker's world contains that problem, but she's not personally at risk of being subjected to it.
15:50 < Adelene> (Well, aside from the 'not considered a person' bit but that's not a *problem* in her usual contexts.)
15:51 < Teceler> (well, most of the people she was interacting with considered her a person, right? She hasn't really talked much about having a problem of that kind)
15:51 < Adelene> Yeah.
15:52 < Adelene> Animalpeople consider her a person and some goblins do, humans and dwarves don't but she never interacts with them, elves don't but can't trap her to sell her and would be just as inclined to eat her if she was a person.
15:53 < Teceler> ...wow, those elves.
15:53 < Adelene> They are a piece of work, yes.
15:54 < Teceler> every time something new gets mentioned about them, it somehow manages to make them even worse
15:54 < Adelene> *giggle*
15:55 < Adelene> We've pretty much covered the worst of it, the bit where they go to war against anyone who cuts down significant numbers of trees is more weird than awful.
15:56 < Teceler> it is, however, very weird :P
15:56 < Adelene> Yup!
15:56 < Adelene> Plenty of room to be also awful. ^^
15:57 < Adelene> (Also, that's all canon, I've filled in some details but that's all.)
15:58 < Teceler> (I knew the trees thing was canon, and the trapping thing but not in that context. The not-cannibalism, not so much)
15:59 < Adelene> The not-cannibalim is something they canonically do only to defeated enemies, but it definitely happens. Also actual-cannibalism, same context.
16:00 < Teceler> they have wars with each other, too, huh?
16:00 < Adelene> Yup.
16:01 < Adelene> I'm not sure exactly how that works but from peoples' reports of reading legends mode its definitely a thing.
16:01 < Adelene> *it's
16:01 < sonatagreen> now I'm imagining the wars start when they try to sell each other wooden goods
16:01 < Adelene> I hate this keyboard. :P
16:01 < Teceler> that's certain a mental image
16:02 < Teceler> *certainly
16:02 < sonatagreen> "I'll trade you this wooden flute for your -- IS THAT A WOODEN FLUTE? DIE MONSTER"
16:02 < Adelene> I think they're meant to be able to sell wood to each other just fine? That might not be in the code yet 'cause you'd never see it, but I'd expect them to assume that elf-made wooden goods were kosher.
16:03 < sonatagreen> I seem to remember that if the wooden stuff you bought from them last year is still in the trade depot when they come back then they'll get mad
16:04 < Teceler> I think that either got fixed or is on the list of things to get fixed, though
16:04 < sonatagreen> oh
16:04 < Adelene> Yeah, they don't *recognize* elf-made goods as special once they leave the map, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't, like, recognize that they're trading with elves and assume based on that.
16:05 < sonatagreen> I mean, realistically, sure. But my way is funnier.
16:05 < sonatagreen> Also, it provides the rulers with a ready excuse any time a war would be expedient.
16:05 < Adelene> heh.
16:05 < Teceler> I actually think last time I played (which was a while ago, so I'm not sure), elf-made wooden goods had a unique description-thing
16:06 < Teceler> 'we suspect they made their wooden goods unethically! war!' :P
16:07 < Teceler> right, if no one else can think of any other characters that should be on this list, I'll send the message, it's otherwise done.
16:07 < Teceler> --although, actually, would the new security measures cause problems for someone borrowing someone else's account with permission?
16:07 < sonatagreen> you could look through Raezenoth's posts? he tends to speak up about slavery
16:08 < Adelene> cat on hands cant ty[e
16:08 < sonatagreen> Generally, yes.
16:08 < Hadassah> *was playing games with SO so is very far behind* I will say that I was into quasi-sentient semi-slavery OCs before it was cool. =P
16:08 < kappabeta> heh
16:09 < kappabeta> Account-sharing: Miles is going to let Mark use his account. will he have to bug Mother Starlight before that'll work straightforwardly
16:10 < Teceler> you were the first, but the person borrowing Thorn's account (who may have to make her own if that's going to get blocked, joy), only heard about Cassandra to start with because Thorn was particularly concerned when she showed up
16:10 < Teceler> (at least, I think you were the first)
16:10 < kappabeta> someone's borrowing Thorn's account?
16:11 < sonatagreen> If Miles is sharing his account *intentionally* it should work okay, unless Esthfora's protections interfere with Mother Starlight's ability to read intentions.
16:11 < kappabeta> esthfora's protections shouldn't interfere with anything except exactly what they're supposed to interfere with
16:11 < Teceler> To write a message, yeah, because it was simpler to do it that way. I haven't actually sent it yet, it occurred to me to ask if that would get blocked
16:11 < kappabeta> so yeah
16:11 < sonatagreen> Your call whether Mark-impersonating-Miles can fool Mother Starlight.
16:11 < kappabeta> Hee.
16:12 < sonatagreen> though that would only apply to unauthorized sharing
16:13 < kappabeta> I think my call is that if for some reason Mark decided to borrow Miles's account *without* authorization (which isn't likely to come up since he's getting blanket permission), he could get caught if he was spending significant time not acting like Miles while browsing the forum
16:14 < Adelene> Oh there's a question, what does happen if someone tries to access the forum without authorization using someone else's account?
16:15 < sonatagreen> They automatically get logged out.
16:15 < Adelene> Lurker neither has nor understands passwords, she's just been keeping the mirror hidden but it's in no way imposible that a tigerperson could find it.
16:15 < Teceler> by the way, if I disappear suddenly it's probably because our power went our or the watch upgraded to a warning and we had to go hide in the closet. Or both. It will probably be fine, but
16:16 < sonatagreen> If I understand how Carp magic works, I think the tigerperson could use the mirror but would get their own account.
16:16 < Adelene> That makes sense.
16:16 < sonatagreen> What kind of natural disaster is hidden from in a closet?
16:16 < sonatagreen> like, basement I'd understand
16:17 < Teceler> tornado. We don't have a basement, and it's a central closet
16:17 < sonatagreen> ah. We don't have a basement but there's a building with one in walking distance where we go if there's a warning.
16:17 < Adelene> (Carp magic mostly *doesn't* work, for this kind of thing, but the reason it doesn't comes down to processing power limitations, so if the forum is willing to do system-compatable heavy lifting, sure.)
16:19 < sonatagreen> (Yeah, the forum can do stuff server-side. Mother Starlight prefers to integrate into native communications networks as a courtesy, but it's not strictly required.)
16:19 < Adelene> *nod*
16:20 < Adelene> If there *was* a forum type thing made out of Carp magic, it would definitely be inclined to just look at who was holding the input device to know who was using it, it's just the first part of that that doesn't happen.
16:27 < Teceler> so is Thorn's friend okay to send this or do they need to make their own account? They probably will anyway if they wind up doing more things, but I'm not sure if they will be, they just turned up
16:27 < sonatagreen> I think they'll need to make their own account.
16:28 < Teceler> okay
16:28 < Teceler> will do
16:28 < Teceler> (also, Thorn is correcting me to 'teammate', but I don't think she actually disagrees. [sigh])
16:33 < Adelene> Oh, this is kind of far future but to think about - when Lurker gets to the point of doing a lot of interworld traveling, she's going to go to worlds that the forum doesn't connect to, and she's going to want the option to give people forum access while she's there if she can.
16:35 < sonatagreen> They can definitely use the mirror if taking out of Carp doesn't break the spell, and she can ask Mother Starlight to prioritize those worlds for connection but that might not work out *immediately*.
16:36 < Adelene> That works less well in a Watsonian sense than I was thinking, but in a Doylesian sense, I like it. :)
16:37 < Teceler> why does blackberry have so many lines ow
16:38 < Teceler> (I really should have darkened the screen before I started poking at themes again)
16:38 < kappabeta> oh yeah, themes! I'm using Rose for Swish right now and it's super pretty but does't really suit them that well, is there a new batch of themes incoming anytime soon?
16:39 < sonatagreen> I had not been particularly thinking of it, do you have suggestions/ideas?
16:39 < kappabeta> Swish wants something... cheerful and informal, if that makes sense?
16:40 < kappabeta> Marshmallow is an example of the type but is taken by Esthfora, they'd also settle for Mint but I'm using that one for my OOC account
16:40 < kappabeta> the dark themes are too dark for her taste and Plain is too... stark?, and everything else is taken iirc
16:41 < kappabeta> Rose is super pretty though, gosh
16:41 < Teceler> well, at the moment, my suggestions are 'a version of blackberry without all the lines' and a version of console that is easier to tell where things are (& maybe not pitch black). More light-on-dark themes in general, really, they'r easier on my eyes.
16:42 < Teceler> but its not a huge thing, I just got surprised
16:42 < Adelene> If you're taking suggestions I would certainly not mind seeing a theme based on the colors I'm using for my computer in general, which is low-contrast-ish light-on-dark browns.
16:43 < Hadassah> Best of luck Teceler, I know the tornado watch feeling.
16:44 < sonatagreen> so I think standing requests are: 1) like marshmallow but not 2) blackberry without the lines 3) light-on-dark browns
16:44 < Adelene> *grabs RGBs*
16:44 < sonatagreen> for 3 have you tried Parchment? it's a little like that
16:45 < kappabeta> yeah
16:46 < Adelene> Main brown is 46, 29, 18; complementary background brown is 98, 55, 31; main text is 216, 200, 190, I also use plain black for oulines.
16:46 < Adelene> I think I'm using Parchment right now, and it's okay, but a little too bright for my tastes.
16:47 -!- linkhyrule5 has joined #backstage
16:50 < Adelene> Here's a slightly old version of my desktop if you want a better idea of how those colors are supposed to work: http://i.imgur.com/ZVsW6XP.png
16:52 < sonatagreen> Noted. (I'm working on 1 right now, but I'll get around to it soonish.)
16:53 < linkhyrule5> I return!
16:53 < Teceler> welcome back
16:53 < Teceler> for some reason the new account can't send pms to anyone but staff, did I miss a step somewhere in there?
16:57 < sonatagreen> PMs are blocked until you've made one post. Anti-spam precaution.
16:57 < Teceler> ah
16:57 < sonatagreen> If a spammer is harassing people, I want them to have to do it in public where I can catch them.
16:57 < Teceler> yeah, that makes sense
16:58 < sonatagreen> I *might* be able to manually unblock you if you want.
16:58 < sonatagreen> Theme 1: Cupcake
16:58 < sonatagreen> kappabeta
16:59 < kappabeta> oo
16:59 < Teceler> I was just going to note zir in the whose running which accounts threads once you said that, don't worry about it
16:59 < kappabeta> Swish approves greatly
16:59 < sonatagreen> :D
16:59 < Teceler> (although that does create the oddity of her having a post-count of 1 when icly she doesn't have any)
16:59 < kappabeta> it's so soft!
17:00 < kappabeta> you are a theme wizard
17:00 < sonatagreen> I can change that manually but it might reblock the pms.
17:00 < sonatagreen> Thanks!
17:00 < sonatagreen> anyway the official policy is to please ignore the post-count discrepancy
17:01 < Teceler> yeah, it's just slightly odder when it's binary like that
17:01 < sonatagreen> eh, ME had a post count of like twelve before they officially posted anything
17:01 < Teceler> that is true
17:05 < Teceler> by the way, not that this is likely to be something you can do anything about, but you can still get a 'send private message' button from someone's post and then it shows up with the recipient blank
17:05 < Teceler> it was weird
17:05 < sonatagreen> curious
17:08 < kappabeta> who is the new character going to PM?
17:09 < Teceler> ME. Originally they were going to use Thorn's account, but apparently couldn't. I don't know if they are going to show up more, we'll see.
17:11 < Teceler> At least they would probably be better at interacting with people than Thorn
17:11 < sonatagreen> Teceler: not sure how well this matches your aesthetics, but try Raspberry?
17:12 < sonatagreen> (theme 2)
17:15 < Teceler> pretty good; my only complaint is the the different modules aren't delinated, and that's a small thing
17:15 < sonatagreen> Modules?
17:16 * Teceler tries to think of a better word
17:16 < Teceler> like, there's the background, and then there's things like the header or the profile-thing that are on top of that?
17:17 < Adelene> I like Cupcake unexpectedly much for what it is. I would like 3 not to have the full-width thing going on tho.
17:17 < Teceler> it vaguely bothers we that they're both the same color and not broken apart
17:17 < sonatagreen> oh, I see
17:20 < sonatagreen> Teceler, I added borders, is this better?
17:21 < Teceler> yes, that's better. Thank you
17:21 < sonatagreen> You're quite welcome. Thanks for giving feedback.
17:24 < sonatagreen> notes to self, ignore me: main brown 2e1d12, complementary background brown 62371f, main text d8c8be
17:25 < Hadassah> I love the DOS-style theme, but the lack of borders (and not having a character I'd need it for) would prevent me from using it. but I do love it for immersiveness
17:25 < sonatagreen> I'm going to make a slightly more readable version for theme 4
17:25 < sonatagreen> thanks
17:39 < sonatagreen> Adelene: theme 3: Mocha
17:40 < Adelene> Excellent. :D
17:40 < sonatagreen> :D
17:40 < Adelene> The link blue is a little odd with those colors, though.
17:41 < sonatagreen> I wasn't sure what to do about that, do you have a better suggestion?
17:41 < Adelene> Let me poke around in paint.net
17:43 < Adelene> aabed8 ?
17:43 < sonatagreen> ok
17:44 < kappabeta> ooh, Mocha is lovely!
17:44 < kappabeta> you are such a theme wizard!
17:44 < Adelene> ^^
17:44 < sonatagreen> (even more understatedly, maybe d8c8ff ?)
17:46 < Adelene> Purple with brown is hard to pull off.
17:48 < Adelene> c8d8ff looks all right, I like aabed8 a little better though.
17:48 < sonatagreen> There's a small library of default color schemes. Sometimes I just use those, sometimes I modify them slightly, sometimes I do basically from scratch.
17:48 < sonatagreen> aabed8 it is, then.
17:48 < Adelene> :)
17:49 < sonatagreen> And of course then there's Mocha, which is sort of technically from scratch but the hard design decisions were already made for me.
17:49 < Adelene> ^^
17:56 < linkhyrule5> I don't supppose you could pull off something like SV's new default theme?
17:56 < linkhyrule5> (sufficient velocity)
17:56 < linkhyrule5> the one with the beautiful starry night sky background
17:56 < linkhyrule5> I feel like ME would totally use that if he had the option
17:56 < linkhyrule5> Oh, remind me, who runs QDS magic decisions?
17:56 < linkhyrule5> Is that Mother Starlight?
17:58 < Adelene> yup
17:58 < sonatagreen> yeah
17:58 < sonatagreen> Image background is possible but I haven't attempted it before, so maybe.
18:01 < linkhyrule5> for science? :P
18:02 < sonatagreen> If someone can find a nice, appropriately-licensed image, I'll give it a try.
18:04 < kappabeta> http://www.freeimages.com/pic/l/m/ma/magicmarie/1005288_32050087.jpg ?
18:05 < Adelene> That's got kind of a visible seam on the lower right, it'd bug me.
18:05 < kappabeta> oh, so it does
18:05 < kappabeta> I might could do something about that
18:05 < kappabeta> if it seems otherwise suitable
18:06 < Adelene> :)
18:07 * Teceler finishes fiddling with formatting and dumps Thorn's private messages to Backstage
18:09 < Adelene> It would be nice if clicking links in spoilers didn't close them. :P
18:10 < Teceler> ...augh.
18:10 < sonatagreen> I doubt that's fixable.
18:10 < Teceler> I can de-spoiler-tag them, but that just brings back the navigation problem
18:10 < Adelene> Make it so only clicking the 'spoiler' heading closes the spoiler?
18:11 < Adelene> I don't know enough html to know how easy that might be tho.
18:18 < linkhyrule5> wouldn't be html, I don't think?
18:18 < linkhyrule5> then again it's been a loooong time since I studied
18:18 < linkhyrule5> I learned html 3.0 or so
18:19 < linkhyrule5> HTML 5 ca napparently handle vidoes now >.>
18:19 < Teceler> precisely
18:21 < linkhyrule5> so, sonatagreen
18:21 < linkhyrule5> which version of create demiplane are you using?
18:21 < linkhyrule5> the one I know of is genesis from the Epic Level Handbook
18:38 < sonatagreen> *back*
18:39 < sonatagreen> It's not firmly tied to any particular version, though it's originally inspired by genesis
18:42 < kappabeta> I wish there was a clear single set of reference material on the function and nature of QDS spells
18:42 < sonatagreen> Sorry.
18:43 < sonatagreen> Most of them don't have that much detail thought out
18:43 < sonatagreen> I guess I could set up a wiki?
18:43 < kappabeta> I periodically think I'm going to try to write one of at least all extant descriptions and then can't because brain
18:43 < linkhyrule5> mostly - does it work like the original in that
18:43 < kappabeta> a QDS wiki would be amazing
18:43 < sonatagreen> maybe use the glowfic wiki
18:43 < linkhyrule5> if you cast it in an existing demiplane
18:43 < linkhyrule5> you can expand it?
18:43 < kappabeta> it might be a little too, like, noncentral for the glowfic wiki
18:43 < sonatagreen> Yes. Also, duration is always instantaneous.
18:44 < linkhyrule5> excellent.
18:44 < linkhyrule5> Next question.
18:44 < kappabeta> duration?
18:44 < linkhyrule5> ME creates your MP bar
18:44 < linkhyrule5> like literally, pulls your MP bar through the Dungeon fourth wall, gets a little vial of blue liquid
18:44 < linkhyrule5> He fiddles with the graduations so that you have 1000x MP
18:44 < linkhyrule5> what happens?
18:44 < sonatagreen> um, I'd have to know more about this
18:45 < linkhyrule5> Have youread Problem Slueth?
18:45 < sonatagreen> yes but not recently
18:45 < sonatagreen> bear in mind that if you're *in Dungeon* when this happens, the most likely result is a death by trickery
18:45 < linkhyrule5> right
18:45 < linkhyrule5> lool
18:45 < linkhyrule5> no, he's not
18:45 < kappabeta> death by trickery?
18:45 < sonatagreen> http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Trickery
18:45 < linkhyrule5> doyou remember
18:45 < linkhyrule5> and just goes after the actual health bars?
18:45 < linkhyrule5> and breaks them?
18:46 < linkhyrule5> It's that kind of thing.
18:46 < sonatagreen> sounds like the sort of thing Hussie would do
18:46 < linkhyrule5> He's going "So you know how you have MP bars and whatnot?
18:46 < linkhyrule5> I'm going to reach into concept space and grab the actual MP bar attached to that concept
18:46 < linkhyrule5> and then fiddle with it, propogating the changes to your MP resevoir"
18:46 < sonatagreen> I'd flavor it like making the container larger rather than redrawing the markings
18:47 < linkhyrule5> Something like that, yeah.
18:47 < linkhyrule5> Whatever makes most sense when he gets it
18:47 < linkhyrule5> In videogames it's usually redrawing the markings, the mana bar doesn't actually start stretchign off the screen or something
18:47 < linkhyrule5> (usually)
18:47 < linkhyrule5> (ignore Dark Souls fora minute) :P
18:47 < kappabeta> XD
18:48 < sonatagreen> in this game it'd be represented by writing numbers like "75/100"
18:48 < sonatagreen> so it's more abstract, and a physical vial would be a more distant metaphor
18:48 < kappabeta> on whom might ME attempt this experiment?
18:49 < sonatagreen> probably be more like Matilda immortaling vampires than like sealing shrens' magic reservoir to prevent contagion
18:49 < kappabeta> <3
18:49 < linkhyrule5> Yeah, something like that
18:51 < Teceler> I was going to say that Thorn would not be volunteering for this, but thinking about it if ME gets her to trust him she might be a good test subject, as she's revivable if it winds up killing her or driving her insane or something
18:52 < linkhyrule5> (And speaking of which, kappa, update that, Matilda being all ialdae at Elcenia is amazing :P )
18:52 < linkhyrule5> The ultiamte target is Lioncourt
18:52 < sonatagreen> also, Dungeon will try to fit visitors into its paradigm; failing that, it'll try to keep them out; failing that, it'll try (once) to kill them by direct fiat; failing that, it'll give up and let it happen.
18:52 < linkhyrule5> as part of a convoluted plot involving four different magic/hypertech systems in order to save Captain Viridan's worlds
18:52 < kappabeta> Mark would totally volunteer as a test subject
18:52 < sonatagreen> Its paradigm includes mental ability scores, so this counts as mental manipulation.
18:52 < linkhyrule5> (Hey, Kappa, will /that/ get Miles' attention? :P )
18:52 < Teceler> that does sound convoluted
18:52 < kappabeta> ...how poorly must you fit the paradigm before it'll try to boot you?
18:52 < kappabeta> Will what get Miles's attention?
18:53 < linkhyrule5> Organizing a giant planetary scale rescue/evacuation plot
18:53 < linkhyrule5> involving at least one true eldritch alien :P
18:53 < kappabeta> well, naturally, if any of it happens in public :P
18:53 < linkhyrule5> Significant quantities of it will!
18:53 < kappabeta> Miles is crashing hard after his kidnapping, though
18:53 < sonatagreen> If you're from outside the cluster, you probably don't fit.
18:53 < Adelene> More things need to happen in public, the forum has been boring today. ;P
18:53 < linkhyrule5> In fact, we may be borrowing a warmhole generator
18:53 < linkhyrule5> er
18:53 < linkhyrule5> wormhole traverser
18:54 < kappabeta> XDDDDDDDDD
18:54 < kappabeta> wait, like, from nexus?
18:54 < linkhyrule5> That, or ME will derive a pure tech teleporter and throw it to Miles to make
18:54 < linkhyrule5> *fabricate
18:54 < linkhyrule5> yeah
18:54 < linkhyrule5> The plan requries a teleporter that Lioncourt can access
18:54 < kappabeta> anyway my brain has been very not today, but Leaf might crawl back onto the forum tomorrow
18:55 < linkhyrule5> ME is basically doing what he does best in the absense of Ludicrous Raw Magic Power, which is finding things out and putting them together
18:55 < Teceler> Thorn is sufficently rattled at the moment to have trouble posting at all, let alone in public (I have not actually worked out her stress values, but they are likely ridiculous)
18:55 < kappabeta> I am extremely interested in this complicated plan and so would Leaf be if he wasn't busy hiding under a blanket
18:55 < linkhyrule5> Miles is probably the most mobile person he knows about
18:55 < kappabeta> hmm, define mobile?
18:55 < linkhyrule5> Oh? Did the Prometheans recognize that origin story, or is this just Cassandra?
18:55 < linkhyrule5> Worldhoppable
18:55 < linkhyrule5> Orz can do it, but their method is brainbreaking and might screw up magic
18:56 < kappabeta> origin story?
18:56 < linkhyrule5> ME can do it, if he wants to sacrifice a small comet to do it
18:56 < linkhyrule5> my creation myth
18:56 < linkhyrule5> Shenanigans are happening there too :P
18:56 < linkhyrule5> But Miles can do it basically for free, and send things basically for free
18:56 < Teceler> no, this is just everything piling up. Cassandra did not help, though, I should add that to the list
18:56 < linkhyrule5> so he'll be publishing this plan soon enough to try and solicit him
18:56 < kappabeta> I mean, Leaf's capacity to transit worlds is not *yet* public
18:57 < linkhyrule5> He invited Raezenoth, didn't he.... frak, no he didn't
18:57 < linkhyrule5> ot publicly
18:57 < linkhyrule5> Mm.
18:57 < linkhyrule5> I mean, I /can/ have ME just find that out, he's been meaning to scry things
18:57 < linkhyrule5> (assuming you don't mind, bby default it's something he can do trivially)
18:57 < kappabeta> XDDDDDD Contacting Leaf with information about him that he hasn't publicly released is gonna raise some stalker flags
18:57 < linkhyrule5> Well, he might just publish the plan and let Leaf contact him once it's clear he's looking for a very world-mobile person
18:57 < linkhyrule5> looool
18:57 < linkhyrule5> I'm kind of tempted to do it then just for that
18:58 < kappabeta> But like, one of the first things he's going to do when he crawls back online is going to be make a post about the shit Archangel's been getting up to
18:58 < linkhyrule5> Thougth seriously, he said he was logically omniscient, I'm surprised Illyan hasn't already gone "well he knows everything"
18:58 < kappabeta> and as part of that, he'll admit to having interworld transit capacity
18:58 < linkhyrule5> that'll do
18:58 < linkhyrule5> So yeah, who wants to hear this ludicrously complicated plan?
18:58 < linkhyrule5> Oooh, oooh!
18:59 < linkhyrule5> You know what would work perfectly?
18:59 < linkhyrule5> Pandora Gates!
18:59 < Teceler> ...oh, dear. I need more plans for keeping Firewall from shutting down their end of the forum because paranoia. Unless he explains why that wouldn't work
18:59 < linkhyrule5> hahah
18:59 < kappabeta> ???
18:59 < Teceler> I thought those only worked within worlds
18:59 < linkhyrule5> They do
18:59 < linkhyrule5> I think
18:59 < linkhyrule5> well it's up to you :P
18:59 < linkhyrule5> but the thing is, I need an intraworld teleporter for the plan
18:59 < linkhyrule5> it can be magic or tech but Lioncourt needs to get her hands on it
18:59 < Teceler> I mean, they could not be but I'm inclined to go with are--ah
19:00 < kappabeta> I'm so confused
19:00 < kappabeta> but highly intrigued
19:00 < linkhyrule5> Okay, so, here's the building blocks
19:00 < linkhyrule5> and see if you can figure out what I'm trying to do before I finish explaining :P
19:00 < kappabeta> i bet i can't, i am super cognitively deficient today
19:00 < Teceler> okay, the thing about Firewall was in response to your comment about Miles making a public post about Archangel shienagans. They are concerned about security. (They are Thorn's shadowy organization)
19:00 < kappabeta> but do go on
19:01 < linkhyrule5> 1) Captain Viridian's local Truth is not stable; it's collapsing into incoherent chaos. This is very unfortunate for any minds caught within it. Neither of the pups with cross-Truth capability have the ability to shore up the dimension enough to save the planet.
19:01 < kappabeta> Public post about Archangel shenanigans includes information that shutting down forum connection won't do shit to spell targeting on previously seen users
19:02 < Teceler> okay, that's good.
19:02 < linkhyrule5> 2) The Orz can move other thinigs and people between Truths the same way it moves itself. Unfortunately, this is extremely unpleasant to any minds involved, as they are broken down into heavily traumatized, conscious shards, forced into a bunch of conceptual leaps
19:02 < linkhyrule5> basically thrown through a memetic blender, and then reassembled at the end.
19:03 < Teceler> ..can they move, for example, backups between Truths safely?
19:03 < linkhyrule5> Good question! I don't know.
19:03 < linkhyrule5> Possible, but I'm not sure how friendly Viridian's planet will be to mass uploading
19:03 < linkhyrule5> and neither is ME
19:04 < linkhyrule5> (also this way is more fun :P )
19:04 < Teceler> I mean, I assume active infomorphs wouldn't, but. --yeah, sure, but that was Thorn's immediate question
19:04 < Teceler> and what's ME's issue with uploading? :P
19:04 < linkhyrule5> ME is fine with it
19:04 < linkhyrule5> ME is an extremely dramatic example of an infomorph, in fact
19:04 < linkhyrule5> his substrate is reality itself and he instatiates in bodies at will
19:05 < Teceler> that is impressive
19:05 < Teceler> I got an idea of something vaguely in that direction
19:05 < Teceler> was he objecting to mass uploading, or was I completely misreading that?
19:05 < linkhyrule5> he has like ten alpha forks at home that do things in parallel that are livesynced, and occasionally he's willing to sacrifice one to a dangerous-to-understand memetic attack so he can do really wonky things
19:05 < linkhyrule5> He's objecting to nonconsensual mass uploading
19:05 < Teceler> ...ah
19:05 < linkhyrule5> and some humans are kind of irrationally opposed to it :P
19:06 < Teceler> yeah, but some of that goes a way in the face of X-threats
19:06 < linkhyrule5> True, but it may not be necessary
19:06 < linkhyrule5> and again, the super convoluted plan is more fun :P
19:06 < Teceler> and it would be a way to at least save some of the population. But since he has a better idea...
19:06 < Teceler> yup, go on with the plan, sorry
19:07 < linkhyrule5> 3) Lioncourt's magic allows her to emulate any tool she has access to. If side effects are not logically entailed by the new method of "doing it by will", they are not carried over into the final Memnodyne. And she doesn't need to comprehend how the tool works to imitate it
19:07 < Teceler> ...wait, are you going to have Lioncourt try to make a new interworld transport mechanism?
19:07 < linkhyrule5> 4) Lioncourtt's magic requires you to visualize everything you do, which is why you can't normally apply TK on the scale of a planet.
19:08 < linkhyrule5> (getting there!)
19:08 < Teceler> do you have a way to speed up the time Lioncourt's magic takes to build?
19:08 < linkhyrule5> 5) ME can access mindscapes, and cause changes to mindscapes to reflect changes in the original mind. Since this is purely conceptual, it's cheap enough that he can (barely) do it between Truths
19:09 < linkhyrule5> Maybe! Even if I don't, we can skip over bits of that - CV's dimension is in danger but not imminent danger, I believe.
19:09 < linkhyrule5> But I bet I can come up with something
19:09 < linkhyrule5> 6) ME has control over how conceptual edits manifest.
19:09 < sonatagreen> so ME basically directly installs a new Memnodyne?
19:09 < linkhyrule5> If he has to.
19:09 < linkhyrule5> 7) Create demiplane can expand existing planes.
19:10 < linkhyrule5> 8) The obvious result of expanding your mindscape is expanding your active RAM - the amount you can visualize at once.
19:10 < Adelene> Ballsy.
19:10 < kappabeta> hahahahaha
19:10 < Teceler> ...oh, wow, that would have interesting effects
19:10 < linkhyrule5> 9) The /only/ thing preventing Lioncourt from affecting an entire planet is the amount she can visualize at once.
19:11 < linkhyrule5> 10) If Lioncourt is taught how to move between Truths, given a teleporter and taught to teleport between physical locations, combines the two to get instant translation across Truths, applies create demiplane to an ME-instantiated mindscape
19:11 < linkhyrule5> she can teleport the entirty of Viridian's planet to a stable Truth.
19:12 < kappabeta> nice.
19:12 < Teceler> Thorn: Are you /sure/ giving Lioncourt this much power is a good idea?
19:12 < Teceler> that is impressive, though, yeah
19:12 < kappabeta> But this thing with altering someone's MP to ludicrous values - is ME going to do it, and is ME going to be willing to do it on request XD
19:14 < Teceler> Based on the sense I've gotten of ME, it probably depends on how hard it is and the content of the request. :P
19:14 < linkhyrule5> MP boosting is solidly in the "affordable given sufficient reason" range
19:15 < kappabeta> Miles would be highly interested in having his MP increased to a ludicrous value.
19:15 < kappabeta> So would Mark.
19:15 < linkhyrule5> He'll do it if there's a good reason, like something valuable being in danger, but not on a whim
19:15 < linkhyrule5> Doesn't have to be a life, it's not /that/ expensive, but important enough
19:15 < linkhyrule5> Teceler: He has thought of that. He's going to brig it up IC with Lioncourt
19:16 < linkhyrule5> He might put a lock on it so that she needs to get the permission of someone we both trust, or else have her swear a binding oath not to use it to harm any person or thing or something similar loophole free
19:16 < Adelene> (Reminder that Lurker will eventually be able to set max MP to arbitrary values *and* give people magic that keeps their current MP at that level as well.)
19:16 < linkhyrule5> But mostly he and Lioncourt will hash it out IC
19:16 < linkhyrule5> Lurker's probably a better bet for it, then
19:16 < Adelene> *nod*
19:16 < kappabeta> heh
19:17 < linkhyrule5> The biggest thing preventing ME from kind of rolling over the setting is the mana cost for casting across Truths
19:17 < Adelene> She needs to jump through some hoops first but in the long run, definitely.
19:17 < kappabeta> If this possibility comes up before lurker gets tehre, though
19:17 < linkhyrule5> The less precedent I set for him doing that, the better
19:17 < kappabeta> how does "Miles wants it as a precaution against future kidnappings and to increase his capacity to help people, Mark wants to go first so that if it kills him Miles won't be dead" sound as a pitch XD
19:19 < linkhyrule5> Decent. He'll probably throw a scry in the direction of "is Miles seriously likely to use this to help people, am I going to get 1+ lives out of this on average", but given that the answer is "yes", pretty good
19:19 < kappabeta> hee
19:19 < linkhyrule5> Ideally he'll want to test it on someone who can be reloaded from backup though
19:19 < linkhyrule5> AKA Thorn :P
19:19 < linkhyrule5> (He can do his own reloads, but again - cross-Truth magic)
19:23 < Teceler> that reminds me, Thorn is getting gradually more willing to share the relevant tech, if anyone wants that. Though the thing with Cassandra might set her back some depending on how that plays out
19:24 < linkhyrule5> That'd be nice
19:24 < Teceler> ...doesn't ME already /have/ effective backup-reload tech? :P
19:24 < linkhyrule5> Yes, but he can't spread it around
19:24 < Teceler> ah
19:24 < linkhyrule5> His version is very, very magic
19:25 < linkhyrule5> and the versions everyone else uses are also magic, but magitech
19:25 < linkhyrule5> Either way, they won't export
19:25 < linkhyrule5> (On a side note? The reason Entelechy seems a bit retcon happy is that it's the onl yway to kill a high-level mage
19:26 < linkhyrule5> Just about any mage that gets past a certain points hits the reality-infomorph stage and becomes pretty much impossible to destroy without saying that they never existed in the first place)
19:26 < Teceler> couldn't you say that they never got quite the powerful, wouldn't that damage less history
19:26 < Teceler> *?
19:27 < linkhyrule5> Time is kind of wonky in Entelechy space
19:27 < linkhyrule5> That would /hurt/ them, definitely
19:27 < linkhyrule5> but they'd still exist as an infomorph that shouldn't exist, if that makes sense
19:28 < linkhyrule5> It'd seriously cripple them, but if they were powerful enough they coudl still cast spells
19:28 < linkhyrule5> and that means they could undo the retcon
19:28 < Teceler> (and if they don't have reality-infomorph-grade mages getting some form of regular therapy, that is silly and they should fix that :P)
19:28 < Teceler> ah
19:28 < linkhyrule5> It'd be equivalent to "sealing them away for a thousand years," basically
19:28 < Teceler> except with time-wonkiness
19:28 < linkhyrule5> Basically
19:28 < linkhyrule5> Some of them do! The ones with
19:28 < linkhyrule5> Some of them do! The ones with
19:28 < linkhyrule5> Some of them do! The ones with
19:28 < Teceler> um
19:28 < linkhyrule5> er, did you get three of that?
19:29 < Teceler> yes
19:29 < linkhyrule5> okay
19:29 < linkhyrule5> that's doing weird things on my screen
19:29 < linkhyrule5> er, do you get teh whole sentence?
19:29 < Teceler> huh
19:29 < linkhyrule5> Or does it end with "The ones with"
19:29 < Teceler> nope, cut off at with
19:29 < linkhyrule5> tch
19:29 < linkhyrule5> Yeah, its' doing that on my screen
19:29 < linkhyrule5> and then it goes on to the next and interprets "Some" as a command
19:29 < linkhyrule5> Some of them do! The ones with nations backing them up, or who learned their lesson from having to put down a few insane mages
19:29 < linkhyrule5> There we go
19:29 < Teceler> ...computers, how do you work
19:29 < Teceler> ah
19:29 < linkhyrule5> Or if not therapy, at least friends and a group
19:30 < linkhyrule5> Thanks to the ease of both time travel and teleportation, basically all the mages of that level know each other
19:30 < linkhyrule5> across history and have always learned to make sure people don't get too alone, because then you get She Who Lives in Her Name
19:30 < Teceler> Thorn likes the system of everyone having muses who can give them effective therapy, and things that people with security concerns should borrow that.
19:31 < Teceler> ...wait, that problem was originally a mage? You didn't mention that
19:31 < linkhyrule5> She could have been. I haven't decided yet.
19:31 < linkhyrule5> She's some brand of god or mage, they kind of overlap
19:31 < linkhyrule5> ME likes that idea too, actually
19:31 < linkhyrule5> if Thorn brings it up he'll bring it up at the next meeting
19:32 < Teceler> Thorn will probably bring it up if their mages going insane problem comes up
19:32 < linkhyrule5> might put them back into the Eigth Age! (because there'll be one fewer apocalypse, heh)
19:32 < Teceler> especially in the context of security issues
19:34 < kappabeta> heh, all this talk of moving between Truths has me wondering if someone should visit Esthfora sometime.
19:36 < linkhyrule5> Mm. It might be possible.
19:36 < Teceler> someone that would not drive insane should probably do that (if Esthfora would like)
19:36 < linkhyrule5> The spell I'm giving Lioncourt, as I'm imagining it, doesn't allow for arbitrary Truth transfer
19:36 < linkhyrule5> You don't get teh trauma from the /movement/
19:36 < linkhyrule5> but if you end up in a hostile Truth where up is purple or something, that cna still screw you up
19:37 < kappabeta> This is technically possible and not even technically dangerous, and she might turn out to be a feasible bridge between not-otherwise-mutually-reachable worlds if somebody turns out to want that someday, but not recommended for anyone who's uncomfortable with going somewhere that explicitly lacks laws of reality
19:37 < linkhyrule5> Orz might visit
19:37 < linkhyrule5> ME does that all the time :P
19:37 < kappabeta> haha
19:37 < kappabeta> does what all the time?
19:37 < linkhyrule5> ... in fact, if Esthfora really exists as a part of people's minds
19:37 < linkhyrule5> he might have been there already
19:37 < linkhyrule5> and not known it
19:37 < linkhyrule5> Going places that explicitly lack laws of reality
19:37 < kappabeta> hahaha
19:37 < Teceler> yeah, but Esthfora's truth-thingy freaks Thorn out.
19:37 < linkhyrule5> He goes into "hierarchy space" and shores up or destroys organizations
19:37 < kappabeta> what does hierarchy space run on?
19:38 < linkhyrule5> Truth :P
19:38 < kappabeta> hahaha
19:38 < kappabeta> that's a law of reality, sort of!
19:38 < Teceler> ...ha
19:38 < Hadassah> I'm out for the evening. The best of funs with your metagaming! So much schemery. Night and sleep well! Have a good day!
19:38 < linkhyrule5> haave fun!
19:38 < linkhyrule5> It's just... basically, the space of possible ways an organization can be
19:38 < kappabeta> byw hadassah!
19:38 < linkhyrule5> organized
19:38 < Teceler> sleep well
19:38 -!- Hadassah has quit
19:39 < linkhyrule5> So he shows up there and kind of plays with the organization, and that fates/metacauses thigns to happen in the real world
19:39 < kappabeta> What I mean when I say Esthfora-as-location explicitly lacks laws of reality is, like... okay so have you ever played Monument Valley
19:39 < linkhyrule5> Or he'll go into "the space of possible results of this experiment" and looks for the most likely one
19:39 < linkhyrule5> Not yet
19:39 < linkhyrule5> Ever since you've mentioned it it's been on my list
19:39 < linkhyrule5> but dang, that list is longer than my arm
19:39 < kappabeta> hee
19:39 < kappabeta> are you broadly familiar with the experience of it, though?
19:40 < Teceler> I am picturing it being something like the Iron Republic (Fallen London), but I have no idea how accurate that is
19:40 < Teceler> (well, minus the devils, obviously)
19:40 < kappabeta> hahaha
19:40 < kappabeta> not really
19:41 < Teceler> pity
19:41 < linkhyrule5> Nope
19:41 < linkhyrule5> I can go take ten minutes and watch a youtube?
19:41 < kappabeta> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wC1jHHF_Wjo here's a trailer but i'm not sure it does the thing
19:42 < kappabeta> there's a trailer
19:42 < Teceler> 'an illusory adventure of impossible architecture and forgiveness'
19:42 < Teceler> yeah, that's going on my list too
19:43 < kappabeta> But basically like, the concept of Monument Valley is "you walk through an Escher-like impossible landscape, and you can rotate and otherwise alter some parts of the landscape in ways that follow a very particular set of rules that would be totally impossible in a real physical space"
19:43 < kappabeta> in Esthfora-as-location, you can walk around on Monument Valley sets.
19:44 < kappabeta> The fact that this is literally logically impossible won't stop you.
19:44 < linkhyrule5> Remind me of Miegakure
19:44 < linkhyrule5> except that's just 4D
19:44 < kappabeta> hmm?
19:44 < Teceler> ...yuup, Thorn is not going there, even without the magical truth godess, she has enough sanity issues from her own world, thanks
19:45 < kappabeta> hahaha
19:45 < kappabeta> It is TECHNICALLY perfectly safe.
19:45 < kappabeta> But likely to be deeply unsettling if you're not prepared for it.
19:46 < linkhyrule5> ME will totally vist
19:46 < linkhyrule5> or possibly have already visited if you think that'd be funny
19:46 < kappabeta> anyway, Esthfora-as-location presents as a physical space, but does so mostly out of the kindness of its heart, and any observable consistencies therein are provided for your convenience and not actually immutable constants.
19:46 < kappabeta> hee
19:47 < linkhyrule5> (the space of truth is totally a vlid scrying target!)
19:47 < kappabeta> I feel like if he'd already visited he would have... noticed
19:47 < linkhyrule5> Not necessarily. Esthfora-as-location may not be all that similar to Esthfora-as-person
19:47 < kappabeta> and I don't think "the space of truth" is the thing that it is XD
19:47 < linkhyrule5> Well, the piece of people's minds that concerns the understanding of truth
19:48 < kappabeta> hmm
19:48 < kappabeta> Esthfora calls herself "made of a part of what it is to be a mind", but it's a really hard-to-explain part whose boundaries don't strictly coincide with any combination of existing English words
19:48 < kappabeta> in previous incarnations her name was Intuition
19:49 < linkhyrule5> The ability to discern Truth on sight?
19:49 < Teceler> huh
19:49 < kappabeta> not exactly
19:50 < kappabeta> I feel like it would be difficult to hit on Esthfora while trying to access some specific, clearly envisioned thing
19:50 < kappabeta> unless you already knew her and you were trying to get to her deliberately
19:50 < kappabeta> hitting on Esthfora by _accident_ seems more plausible
19:51 < kappabeta> if that's a thing that happens
19:51 < sonatagreen> *back*
19:51 < kappabeta> but yeah, she doesn't embody any specific, neatly encapsulated ability or concept that has a definition outside of herself, I don't think
19:52 < Teceler> welcome back (you maybe need an 'away' flag)
19:52 < sonatagreen> Actually I'm not 100% sure that would work. You can normally only use /create demiplane/ to expand *your own* demiplane. Your mindscape might or might not count as sufficiently yours.
19:52 < kappabeta> haha
19:56 < linkhyrule5> Hm
19:56 < linkhyrule5> I wonder if Orz's Truthslip can handle magic books
19:56 < kappabeta> hm?
19:56 < linkhyrule5> it does basically disassemble things at a very basic platonic level
19:56 < linkhyrule5> and reassemble them
19:56 < linkhyrule5> If it can, it may not be impossible to instantiate a Leaf-truth custom version of creat demiplane and have Orz ship it
19:57 < kappabeta> XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
19:57 < kappabeta> expand on that?
19:57 < linkhyrule5> Also the way I have it, the mindscape is literally the inside of your mind
19:57 < linkhyrule5> Basically, research times are kind of arbitrary when you can a) move into orthogonal imaginary time and b) can just instantiate objects out of the space of possible spellbooks anyway
19:57 < linkhyrule5> Thing is, as per usual, that doesn't do anyone not in Entelechy any good.
19:57 < kappabeta> XD
19:58 < linkhyrule5> At some expense, you could make a version that would exist to a non-Entelechy person, but it's still in Entelechy
19:58 < linkhyrule5> and jsut for the sake of game balance I'm going to say that instantiating it directly i someone else's world is one of those "haha sacrifice an astronomical object" things
19:58 < linkhyrule5> (because otherwise, well, owl someone a hand grenade, and similar shenanigans)
19:59 < kappabeta> It's possible that Esthfora could be used as a delivery mechanism there, specifically because spellbooks are broadly informational in nature
19:59 < linkhyrule5> So the idea is, ME researches a verison fo create demiplane that /definitely/ works on mindscapes
19:59 < linkhyrule5> (I would argue that the mindscape is literally the inside of your mind and is kind of very very yours, there's a room in your mindscape that contains you looking into a room in your mindscape that contains...)
19:59 < linkhyrule5> (but it's sonata's call)
20:00 < linkhyrule5> and then Esthfora/Orz slips it to Leaf, who gates it to Lioncourt
20:00 < linkhyrule5> or learns it and scribes it, if he wants
20:00 < linkhyrule5> though it's kind of a niche use thing
20:00 < linkhyrule5> Though I suppose "more mental capacity" is kind of generally useful
20:01 < kappabeta> Leaf can wish for spellbooks
20:01 < sonatagreen> *finishes reading scrollback*
20:01 < kappabeta> Probably not ones that have never been out of the Entelechy
20:01 < sonatagreen> I did use the irc /away feature, though maybe not all clients show that
20:01 < kappabeta> My client didn't
20:01 < linkhyrule5> mine doesn't
20:01 < sonatagreen> (if you want to check, MotherStarlight is currently away)
20:01 < linkhyrule5> oh
20:01 < Teceler> you were greyedout for a while, that might be it
20:01 < linkhyrule5> I see MotherStarlight as away
20:01 < sonatagreen> yes, that's it
20:01 < linkhyrule5> but I didn't pay attention to that :P
20:01 < Teceler> I was thinking more like
20:01 -!- Teceler is now known as Teceler|away
20:02 < sonatagreen> that works too
20:02 -!- Teceler|away is now known as Teceler
20:02 < kappabeta> but anyway if you could get a spellbook to Esthfora, which may be easier than getting it to anywhere else because you don't have to adjust for the local function of reality, and if this turned out to be legit per Dungeon spellbook function, Esthfora could turn around and deliver the information content of the spellbook directly into a mind
20:02 < kappabeta> or someone could come to Esthfora and pick it up
20:03 < linkhyrule5> If Esthfora is really seriously "accomodates any Truth," ME can cast basically arbitrary effects on/in her
20:03 < linkhyrule5> which, uh, might be bad for drama
20:03 < kappabeta> I mean, what do you mean by basically arbitrary effects
20:03 < linkhyrule5> Entelechy magic can natively do anything that can be imagined, limited only by mana costs.
20:03 < Adelene> That sounds like a little more fire than we probably want to be on, yes.
20:03 < linkhyrule5> hahaha
20:03 < linkhyrule5> Yeah.
20:04 < Teceler> hee
20:04 < linkhyrule5> Entelechy exists as a really amusing, interesting setting that anyone sufficiently durable or suicidally curious can go visit
20:04 < sonatagreen> To what extent does a person create their own mindscape? To what extent are mindscapes added/granted/created by some external deity-like entity that cares about minds?
20:04 < linkhyrule5> but can never be allowed to seriously touch other Truths for risk of accidentally breaking them over its knee.
20:04 < linkhyrule5> sonatagreen: Not and not, respectively
20:04 < kappabeta> the flip side of "you don't have to adjust for the local function of reality" is "that's because there isn't one, which means that causing things to happen there gets much less straightforward very quickly as you depart from 'visit and engage in simple physical interaction'"
20:05 < linkhyrule5> It's... like, if you had a memory palace, that's what it woudl be
20:05 < linkhyrule5> They're Reality Marbles, if you watch Fate/Stay Night
20:05 < sonatagreen> I don't.
20:05 < linkhyrule5> Phoo.
20:05 < linkhyrule5> So a mage /can/ customize their mindscape pretty freely
20:05 < linkhyrule5> and if they set safeties on their spells they can do it safely too
20:05 < linkhyrule5> But by default, that's not the case
20:05 < linkhyrule5> It's... whatever's appropriate for you
20:06 < linkhyrule5> Okay, so, basically, Esthfora is Esthfora's mindscape.
20:06 < linkhyrule5> That sort of thing.
20:06 < kappabeta> Yes.
20:06 < sonatagreen> Is it at all reasonable to describe different mindscapes as different locations in a single plane/layer/aspect of reality? like the astral plane or something
20:06 < kappabeta> And Esthfora's *mind* is *suuuper weird*
20:06 < linkhyrule5> In Entelechy /everyone/ has one of those, but most people don't really use it
20:06 < kappabeta> doesn't necessarily experience linear time or straightforward causality, kind of weird
20:06 < linkhyrule5> It's "what you would be if you were a location"
20:06 < linkhyrule5> Most people have pretty boring like-reality mindscapes, because most people are boring :P
20:07 < linkhyrule5> Ooh, here's another example : Witch Barriers, from Madoka.
20:07 < linkhyrule5> Witch Barriers are the mindscapes of really depressed magical girls.
20:07 < sonatagreen> It seems like it's not really the kind of demiplane that Create Demiplane was designed to be compatible with, so I'm leaning towards no.
20:07 < linkhyrule5> Mm... Different locations... Iiiish? But only so far as different worlds are different locations
20:07 < linkhyrule5> Mmkay. Custom research shenanigans it is.
20:07 < sonatagreen> Designing a new spell for the purpose should definitely work.
20:07 < linkhyrule5> Can wish create arbitrary non-researched spellbooks, btw?
20:08 < sonatagreen> No, it's very roughly as limited as demon creation in terms of doing informational heavy lifting.
20:08 < kappabeta> I could see it being the case that you can visit Esthfora but can't use it as a waypoint between realities if there's shit going on like between the Entelechy and not-the-Entelechy
20:08 < linkhyrule5> mmkay
20:08 < linkhyrule5> Thing is, there'se a lot ME can do just by transferring information
20:08 < kappabeta> hmm?
20:08 < linkhyrule5> Magic effects will "not exist" in non-Entelechy worlds
20:09 < sonatagreen> Once anyone knows a spell, wish can create a spellbook of that spell, though.
20:09 < kappabeta> :D
20:09 < linkhyrule5> Hm.
20:09 < kappabeta> How many spells are there that aren't in QDS's catalogue, by the way? like, vague ballpark?
20:09 < linkhyrule5> I think we need to decide if wish can reach the Entelechy
20:09 < kappabeta> reach how?
20:09 < linkhyrule5> I'm leaning towards "yes, but it takes the whole wish" type thing
20:09 < linkhyrule5> like true resurrection does
20:10 < kappabeta> the whole...?
20:10 < linkhyrule5> you need two wishes, one to reach it and one to actually do the thing
20:10 < kappabeta> i don't think that's how wish
20:10 < linkhyrule5> True resurrection works that way in canon D&D
20:10 < linkhyrule5> ... I thnk
20:10 < linkhyrule5> double checking
20:10 < linkhyrule5> Right, so, not quite
20:11 < sonatagreen> Depends on how you count. A lot of their spells also exist in slightly different versions, and there are probably a moderate number of spells that are kept secret by their creators. For spells in common circulation, though, I think I listed all of them in the worldbuilding thread.
20:11 < linkhyrule5> "A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level."
20:11 < linkhyrule5> That sort of thig.
20:11 < linkhyrule5> You make one wish, "for the next wish to touch the Entelechy," and then the next can contest Entelechy magic and instantiate things and whatnot as normal
20:11 < kappabeta> hmm, as fascinating as this is, I'm starting to become marginally less exhausted and I want to go to bed before "marginally less exhausted" becomes "awake three hours past my bedtime" and the cycle repeats
20:11 < linkhyrule5> loool
20:11 < kappabeta> Dungeon spell "wish" doesn't that thing, I don't think?
20:11 < sonatagreen> haha
20:12 < linkhyrule5> I've been there
20:12 < linkhyrule5> so much
20:12 < Adelene> Sleep well, Kappa.
20:12 < linkhyrule5> >.>
20:12 < linkhyrule5> good luck.
20:12 < kappabeta> <3
20:12 < sonatagreen> yeah, Dungeon wish is much more limited.
20:12 < Teceler> sleep well
20:12 < linkhyrule5> Try melatonin + ambien
20:12 < sonatagreen> closer to nethack wish than d&d wish
20:12 < linkhyrule5> Ahh, okay.
20:12 < linkhyrule5> (Ah, nethack
20:12 < sonatagreen> basically 'create even magic item'
20:13 < linkhyrule5> +2 blessed greased silver dragon scale mail, +2 blessed Magicbane, and blessed wand of wishing (0:3) please!)
20:13 < linkhyrule5> er, wait, no, you can't wish for wands of wishing
20:13 -!- kappabeta has left #backstage
20:13 < linkhyrule5> I forget, what was the usual third wish?
20:13 < linkhyrule5> But yeah, anyway, in that case wish can't really grab things that are researched in the ENtelechy by default, because they don't exist
20:14 < linkhyrule5> If Esthfora grabs them it can, though
20:14 < linkhyrule5> ...mm, that doesn't actually add much difficulty
20:14 < linkhyrule5> I might jus let it go through then
20:14 < linkhyrule5> How "on fire" is "instant custom spells for everyone"?
20:15 < sonatagreen> combined with unlimited mp? extremely
20:15 < Teceler> if you combo that with ridicolous mp... yeah
20:15 < sonatagreen> there's no *theoretical* limit to what Dungeon magic can do with enough mp
20:16 < linkhyrule5> Unlimited MP is not something ME can throw around
20:16 < linkhyrule5> but it is apparently something Lurker can, so.
20:16 < sonatagreen> I guess it's kind of like Entelechy that way, except that it's a lot harder to get astronomical amounts of mana
20:16 < Teceler> arbitarily high mp
20:16 < Adelene> Lurker is going to be nonzero amounts of paranoid, she's not going to be handing out 10,000mp to everyone with an account, but yeah, large amounts of fire.
20:16 < Teceler> seems like something he could do?
20:16 < linkhyrule5> Ditto. Not something he can throw around.
20:17 < linkhyrule5> Scrying on other truths: manageable. Sacrifice a chair or something. A lot of mana by newbie mage standards, but pretty par for the course for him.
20:17 < linkhyrule5> Interfering with other truths in ephemeral/conceptual ways: Expensive. Not something he can do on a whim. Sacrifice a mountain, he has a few of those. Only if it's important.
20:17 < linkhyrule5> Interfering with other truths in physical ways: HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAAHAno
20:18 < linkhyrule5> Interfering with other truths in ways that produce massive changes in destiny: Somewhere in between the last two. He can get around this by empowering people who aren't from the world he wants to affect
20:18 < linkhyrule5> then they take the mana cost, except that their magic system doesn't care
20:18 < Adelene> Lurker's about a month out from having both Dungeon and Carp magic; once she does the only thing stopping her from developing a technique to adjust peoples' max MP is that Carp magic doesn't play well with human experimentation.
20:18 < linkhyrule5> Uh.
20:18 < Adelene> And Leaf has at least two friends who can get around that problem.
20:19 < linkhyrule5> This would be the time to point out that precog is a pretty popular power around here.
20:19 < linkhyrule5> >.>
20:19 < linkhyrule5> yeahhhh
20:19 < Adelene> I'm not sure precog would help much?
20:19 < linkhyrule5> Truth Engine style precog might.
20:20 < linkhyrule5> ME style definitely will, it's comparable to path to victory sometimes
20:20 < linkhyrule5> (not always, Entelechy magic isn't /that/ broken, but only because of issues defining "victory")
20:20 < Teceler> ...oh /dear/
20:20 < linkhyrule5> Precog does not work on other Truths.
20:20 < linkhyrule5> I did think this throug :P.
20:20 < Teceler> yeah, I know, but that's my reflexive reaction to that :P
20:20 < linkhyrule5> Entelechy is allowed to have all sorts of weird stuff, but there are always reasons why it doesn't work on other Truths
20:20 < linkhyrule5> because it has to add up to normality
20:21 < linkhyrule5> AKA: "Nice world you've got there. Why don't the dragons rule it already?"
20:21 < linkhyrule5> Basically, Entelechy magic can make outcome pumps: pick a thing, that thing happens.
20:21 < linkhyrule5> Thing is, it's generally expensive enough you have to be pretty object-level about what thing it is
20:21 < linkhyrule5> You can go conceptual a little, but you still have to tell it what you mean by victory
20:22 < Teceler> I feel like there's probably a 'unless contested by another sufficently powerful effect' in there?
20:22 < linkhyrule5> and if yo uask for something too ridiculous, it might turn out that the only way to get you what you want is to do something very unfortunate.
20:22 < linkhyrule5> Well yes.
20:22 < linkhyrule5> Though in that case the spell tends to just not go off
20:22 < Teceler> based on what you've said earlier.
20:22 < Teceler> yeah
20:22 < linkhyrule5> you get distracted or something
20:22 < linkhyrule5> after a few times "forgetting" to cast the spell a smart mage gets the picture.
20:22 < Teceler> ...how often does the explosion result happen, is that a thing mages actually have to worry about?
20:22 < linkhyrule5> A dumb mage keeps trying and eventually blows themselves up, and that is how the Third, Fifth Apocalypses happend.
20:23 < linkhyrule5> Also nations do this on a regular basis.
20:23 < linkhyrule5> Nations tend to be shortlived for this reason.
20:23 < linkhyrule5> Explosion results happen if you're determined.
20:23 < linkhyrule5> Basically, shonen manga mages don't live long.
20:23 < Teceler> and apparently have collateral damage problems
20:23 < linkhyrule5> Sometimes.
20:24 < linkhyrule5> More often, the mage in question is part of a really stubborn organization
20:24 < Adelene> I should perhaps also mention for fire reasons that Lurker will also be able to *reduce* peoples' MP.
20:24 < linkhyrule5> that moves too slowly
20:24 < linkhyrule5> (oh geez, that's hilarious)
20:24 < Teceler> well, I assume there's some deterrent of 'if you keep trying this you will explode' on the trying to much
20:24 < Teceler> ...ha
20:24 < linkhyrule5> and the organization as a whole has to explode to get the experiments to stop
20:24 < Teceler> ah
20:24 < linkhyrule5> It's definitely a thig mages worry about: it's why mages don't just sacrifice more and more things to try and overwhelm each others wards
20:24 < linkhyrule5> Doing a contest of raw power gets everyone killed and helps nobody
20:24 < linkhyrule5> you have to be clever and get around people's wards
20:25 < linkhyrule5> Even a primordial dragon will think twice before challenging a human mages wards directly
20:25 < linkhyrule5> though they usually have the intelligence or informational effects to just trivially bypass them
20:25 < Teceler> yeah, but it you don't have to worry about hitting an opposing effect and exploding just randomly, you tend to get warning?
20:27 < linkhyrule5> Sort of.
20:27 < linkhyrule5> The warnings can be subtle
20:27 < linkhyrule5> Old mages start putting probability alarms up that activate whenever something really unlikely happens
20:27 < linkhyrule5> they tend to mean that the universe is getting annoyed at you
20:27 < linkhyrule5> or that someone hit you with a fate curse that can happen to
20:27 * Teceler giggles.
20:27 < linkhyrule5> sonatagreen - so on a side note, we need a good reason for ME to not be able to provide people with arbitrary spells
20:28 < linkhyrule5> I'm glad you like my universe!
20:28 < linkhyrule5> I spent time on it, it'd be sad if nobody liked it :P
20:28 < Teceler> well-built universes are interesting!
20:29 < linkhyrule5> Thank you!
20:29 < linkhyrule5> I went way out of my way to make this universe derivable from base principles
20:29 < linkhyrule5> I doubt someone else would get exactly the same universe, but I do want the general impression of "oh, yeah, this has to happen because that is true"
20:31 < sonatagreen> linkhyrule5: Dungeon spells specifically, or any spells?
20:31 < linkhyrule5> Both, but Entelechy spells are pretty covered.
20:32 < linkhyrule5> If he can research abritary Dungeon spells (and he can, because time works the way he wants it to), and he can get those spells to arbitrary people (and by default he can, between Esthfora and wish), and people have arbitrary MP to cast it...
20:32 < sonatagreen> I'd say Dungeon spells are pretty closely tied to Dungeon's Truth, and the only reason they work in other worlds is that those worlds are "willing"/able to be flexible enough to let Dungeon impose its rules in limited ways.
20:32 < sonatagreen> So if ME wants to contravene the rules on how spell research works, he's working against a foreign Truth
20:32 < linkhyrule5> The thing is, he's not quite doing that
20:32 < sonatagreen> oh, messing with time, hm
20:33 < linkhyrule5> He's just saying "So time passes about 1000x faster in this room"
20:33 < linkhyrule5> "Here's an alpha fork"
20:33 < linkhyrule5> "Hello alpha fork, thank you for the spell."
20:33 < linkhyrule5> Mm.
20:33 < sonatagreen> Maybe the Entelechy isn't flexible enough for Dungeon magic to work at all there?
20:33 < linkhyrule5> Think about it, I will too - need to brb tho, my mom wants me to mulch the garden >.>
20:34 < linkhyrule5> Maybe, but by default the ENtelechy is super super flexible - anything imaginable, and all
20:34 < linkhyrule5> if anything the problem would be that it's too flexible, it won't like Dungeon magic imposing its rules and sasying what it can't do
20:34 < sonatagreen> I was thinking of it as extremely rigid on a fundamental level but able to accomplish lots of stuff within those rules
20:34 < sonatagreen> mmm
20:36 < sonatagreen> offtopic, but listening to My Shiny Teeth and Me
20:36 < sonatagreen> why is something this stupid allowed to be this good
20:38 < sonatagreen> too alien/perpendicular? like Dungeon magic can't "find" the Entelechy, sort of
20:39 < sonatagreen> I mean, by my understanding, if the Entelechy can flex to accommodate Dungeon magic, that kind of implies that some Entelechy mage could have created something equivalent to Dungeon magic from scratch
20:40 < sonatagreen> and it seems like if it were possible to do something as insanely overpowered as Dungeon-in-Entelechy would be, then someone would have done it
20:40 < sonatagreen> and then Entelechy wouldn't add up to normality
20:44 < Adelene> Regarding Lurker and amounts of fire - the MP-setting effect is a Carp magic thing, and while I do want her to be able to use it on arbitrary worlds, I don't think other-worlders should be able to use it, at *least* without jumping through some hoops and possibly at all.
20:45 < Adelene> Plus they'd have to work out how, and Carp magic kills mages who annoy it, especially if they don't know what kinds of precautions to take.
20:45 < Adelene> On top of that, I don't think she can give people MP from scratch, I think they need to already have read a spellbook.
20:45 < sonatagreen> Theme 4: Command
20:46 < linkhyrule5> hm.
20:46 < sonatagreen> a more readable console-style theme
20:46 < linkhyrule5> Well, it's very rigid
20:46 < linkhyrule5> but it's "Turing complete"
20:46 < linkhyrule5> you can write just about anything within its system
20:47 < linkhyrule5> An Entelechy mage could have created Dungeon magic, but the result woudl still cost mana - making MP a real thing would be prohibitively expensive for anyone except primordial dragons with access to galaxies
20:47 < sonatagreen> so the question is: Entelechy can support the things that Dungeon magic can do, but can it support doing it as *cheaply* as Dungeon magic?
20:47 < sonatagreen> right
20:47 < linkhyrule5> pretty much, yeah
20:47 < sonatagreen> so basically it's theoretically possible but prohibitively expensive to import Dungeon magic to Entelechy?
20:47 < linkhyrule5> I'm thinking that Entelechy can research spells, but Dungeon magic just won't accept it
20:48 < linkhyrule5> it goes "this wasn't made by my rules/Entelechy refuses to enforce my restrictions" and the spell doesn't take
20:48 < linkhyrule5> And yeah, pretty much.
20:48 < sonatagreen> not sure how relevant this is, but I'm thinking that under Dungeon rules, the information itself is magic
20:48 < sonatagreen> which is why spellbooks resist copying
20:48 < linkhyrule5> that's basically Entelechy's only restriction, so I use it everywhere
20:50 < sonatagreen> so you could theoretically import a complete textual description of the relevant information to Dungeon, but it wouldn't have the magical status
20:50 < sonatagreen> like a text file containing the transcripted bytecode of an executable, it technically has the same information but isn't usable
20:51 < sonatagreen> *transcribed
20:51 < sonatagreen> or maybe more analogous to source code
20:51 < sonatagreen> anyway.
20:51 < sonatagreen> yeah, sounds like a working plan.
20:53 < linkhyrule5> so now I just need to finish hashing out the details of teleporting ap lanet :P
20:57 < Teceler> what you need is an information handling expander, right?
20:57 < linkhyrule5> Oh, right, I can't use create demiplane anymore, can I
20:57 < linkhyrule5> not without having Miles research it or something
20:58 < linkhyrule5> ME can do it but expensive yada yada
20:58 < linkhyrule5> so yeah
20:58 < linkhyrule5> yeah, I need some way to get a Lioncourt a whoooole lot of extra RAM
20:58 < linkhyrule5> enough to hold a planet it in
20:58 < Teceler> Eclipse's tech could handle some of that, but probably not enough. Hm.
21:00 < Teceler> (besides, I don't know how her power would interact with uploading, and that's their best thing for more computing power)
21:00 < Teceler> (or sometimes extremely heavily modified physical morphs, but that's the same problem)
21:01 < linkhyrule5> A Promethean uploader might do it, if we mix our plots
21:01 < linkhyrule5> A "tool that uploads the target to memory"
21:01 < sonatagreen> a narrow-application spell *just* for expanding a mindscape would probably be a lot cheaper than create demiplane
21:01 < linkhyrule5> and then "teleport the memory"
21:01 < linkhyrule5> ^ or that
21:01 < sonatagreen> although still relatively high level
21:01 < linkhyrule5> I mean we're still on the scale of months anyway 'cause we need time for Lioncourt to learn her Memnodyne
21:02 < Teceler> a seed AI would probably have enough working memory, but not the relevant ability
21:02 < Teceler> so get someone to research it? Will CV's world hold up that long?
21:02 < linkhyrule5> Dunno.
21:02 < sonatagreen> if you only need to expand a little bit (like 50%) then that'd probably be around 55mp
21:02 < linkhyrule5> Hm.
21:02 < Teceler> for that matter, is it just the one planet there?
21:02 < linkhyrule5> hahahano
21:02 < linkhyrule5> (to sonatagreen)
21:03 < sonatagreen> if you want to expand a lot, like room sized to planet sized, that's... a lot more
21:03 < linkhyrule5> You can imagine your mindscape to be infinite if you want, but in symbolic form the size of a mindscape correlates directly to how much you can imagein at once
21:03 < linkhyrule5> your mindscape is probably, yeah, a bout thesize of a room
21:03 < linkhyrule5> well, no
21:03 < linkhyrule5> you'll have dense lilbraries and a whole palace
21:03 < Teceler> I think she meant the handling capacity
21:03 < linkhyrule5> but there'll be a mostly-empty room somewhere in it that is your "working memory", the "eeye of your mind"
21:04 < sonatagreen> right
21:04 < linkhyrule5> and that'll be room-sized
21:04 < linkhyrule5> and that needs to be planet sized
21:04 < sonatagreen> Dungeon magic is probably not all that efficient at this
21:04 < sonatagreen> since expanding your mindscape or working memory is likely to increase max mp
21:04 < sonatagreen> and it considers that an obvious game balance issue
21:05 < sonatagreen> so it'll be pretty expensive
21:05 < linkhyrule5> heh
21:05 < linkhyrule5> Hm.
21:06 < Teceler> even if it did it in a way that didn't technically increase Dungeon mp?
21:06 < linkhyrule5> Okay, assume that somehow we get Lioncourt direct access to a planet sized databank
21:06 < linkhyrule5> an interworld data link
21:06 < sonatagreen> I'm not sure how that would work, since they're both tied to mental capacity
21:06 < linkhyrule5> ^ ME could draw the distinction, and that /wouldn't/ be hilariously expensive
21:07 < linkhyrule5> it'd be a kind of weird thing like "moving an object without moving its image"
21:07 < linkhyrule5> but that's definitely a thing that can be done, cutting causal links
21:07 < sonatagreen> *somewhat* less expensive, though it still feels like boosting an ability score
21:07 < linkhyrule5> At lest it's not exponential now?
21:07 < linkhyrule5> it's not the same ability score you use to cast spells?
21:08 < sonatagreen> kind of like that, yeah
21:08 < sonatagreen> but likely somewhere in the 200-400 mp range, for a planet sized boost
21:08 < Adelene> Lurker's thing is not MP specific, if the specific thing you want can be reasonably enough considered to be all one thing she can learn to boost it.
21:09 < Teceler> is 'working memory' enough of a specific thing for her?
21:09 < Adelene> Dunno.
21:09 < Teceler> and how would making a spell that did, say, a quarter of that, and casting it for times work, would it stack?
21:10 < linkhyrule5> if it works as traditional for D&D, it'll add, not multiply
21:10 < Adelene> I'm ruling that 'intelligence' isn't except for people who come from places that have a system that explicitly call it so, but well-defined subsets might be.
21:10 < sonatagreen> It would depend on how the spell was designed. Might stack additively, might only stack up to some cap.
21:10 < sonatagreen> (like how d&d:wishing for improved ability scores only works up to +5)
21:12 < Teceler> that makes sense
21:12 < Adelene> Hm
21:13 < Adelene> The thing that Dungeon does, where it rifles through someone's past and figures out how many max MP they should have - like it did with Leaf - if it could be convinced to rifle through someone's mind and give them an Int stat, Lurker could then manipulate the value of it.
21:13 < Teceler> The nice thing about Lurker doing it, in Thorn's opinion, is that she could put it back later if necessary. :P
21:13 < Teceler> hm
21:13 < Adelene> And a Dungeon spell to boost Int would probably do that thing.
21:15 < Teceler> I am inclined to say if you dropped people in Eclipse they might acquire EP character sheets if there's nothing stopping that, which have relevant stats -- the one you want is probably Cognition
21:15 < linkhyrule5> That would ... generally increase intelligence-related things
21:15 < linkhyrule5> which would eb cool and all, but be super hard to roleplay
21:15 < Teceler> *you'd
21:16 < Adelene> *nod*
21:16 < linkhyrule5> I've got ME loaded down with filters and distractions to explain the mistakes he makes
21:16 < linkhyrule5> or else he'd be unmanageable
21:17 < Adelene> I'd be inclined to say that leaving someone running around with 10,000 int or cognition or whatever would be inclined to break them pretty quick, and that Lurker would realize this and not do that.
21:17 < linkhyrule5> Maybe, yeah
21:17 < Teceler> yeah
21:18 < linkhyrule5> if we say that 10,000 Int isn't a natural intelligence boost, but some weird thing where your mind is working much faster and bigger than your wisdam can manage
21:18 < Teceler> I mean, EP has effective attribute caps, but the highest is a 40, and, well.
21:18 < Adelene> Especially as she'll've been on the 'knocked out for a couple hours' end of some rather less gratuitous mind magic already.
21:18 < linkhyrule5> and ther esult will break the human mind
21:18 < linkhyrule5> eheheh
21:18 < linkhyrule5> ME: Oops...
21:18 < linkhyrule5> :P
21:18 < linkhyrule5> Teceler: Where are the Prometheans? That's all we really need, so
21:18 < linkhyrule5> I'mg uessing they're around 100 or something
21:18 < linkhyrule5> or 10,000
21:18 < linkhyrule5> or just "enough"
21:19 < Teceler> I don't think there are actual stats for them
21:19 < Adelene> By 10,000 I mean 'large values of enough', yeah.
21:19 < Teceler> but seed AIs that have taken advantage of being such are explicitly incapable of downloading into regular morphs
21:20 < Teceler> because they are way too big
21:20 < Adelene> She's not going to balk at someone risking their lives to save people but she's definitely going to understand this as being that thing and take it seriously.
21:21 < linkhyrule5> Right
21:21 < linkhyrule5> Of course there's also "talking Lioncourt into this" which may or may not be difficult depending
21:22 < linkhyrule5> but backstage plan if it's even possible first, and then the characters can run into problems and impossibilities in a controlled manner
21:22 < linkhyrule5> with only amusing amounts of fire, instead of gratuitously excessive amounts
21:22 < linkhyrule5> :P
21:22 < Teceler> "As extremely potent intelligences, they should also be treated as distinctly non-human. Even though their original templates were based on human mindsets, they have evolved and grown in ways that can only be described as posthuman. ... Gamemasters are encouraged to keep Promethean involvement with player characters to a minimum..."
21:23 < linkhyrule5> ....
21:23 < linkhyrule5> about that....
21:24 < linkhyrule5> oh well
21:24 < Teceler> yeah, yeah, I know
21:24 < linkhyrule5> they won't be the first incomprehensible alien thing on the board
21:24 < linkhyrule5> geez, how many do we /have/ now
21:24 < Teceler> Lioncourt's player could probably say more about whether talking Lioncourt into this is possible
21:24 < Teceler> lots
21:24 < linkhyrule5> Esthfora, Orz, Argus, the various people
21:24 < linkhyrule5> from world 34
21:24 < linkhyrule5> ME is not very incomprehensible in mindset but he's definitely alien in "body"
21:25 < linkhyrule5> resident334
21:26 < Teceler> I have a newly created ridiculously powerful intelligence that is trying to work out morality that I'm considering throwing at the forum if I ever get bored. :P
21:26 < linkhyrule5> looooool
21:26 < linkhyrule5> I mean, game theory covers most of it
21:26 < Teceler> I don't get the impression resident334 is that alien. Their colors seem to be.
21:26 < linkhyrule5> read some of the Sequences sometime
21:26 < linkhyrule5> true
21:26 < linkhyrule5> and their syntax
21:27 < Teceler> well, yes, but then you'd need to count Lantern too
21:28 < Teceler> and probably some others. Possibly Lurking, but theirs is more... something else
21:28 < Adelene> Lurking's from a weird context, she's not really all that alien.
21:28 < Teceler> yeah
21:28 < Teceler> I was thinking more 'not very good at langauge'
21:29 < Adelene> *nod*
21:29 < linkhyrule5> I was thinking about coutning Lantern
21:29 < linkhyrule5> so Teceler
21:29 < linkhyrule5> question
21:30 < linkhyrule5> *does* EP have, somewhere, a RAM system big enough to hold a planet
21:30 < linkhyrule5> ?
21:30 < linkhyrule5> and download that data quickly?
21:30 < Teceler> I mean
21:30 < Teceler> have, or 'make quickly' I assume
21:30 < Teceler> at an atomic level?
21:31 < Teceler> hm
21:31 < Teceler> I mean, I"m pretty sure they have a Jupiter-brain-or-more through on one of the exoplanets they've found, but that may be being used by Someone Else
21:31 < linkhyrule5> I don't know the detail level, I'll need to ask
21:32 < sonatagreen> sufficiently superintelligent beings are not actually possible to roleplay
21:32 < linkhyrule5> I mean, there's no way Lion knows the detail of somerandom rock she's TKing down to atomic level
21:32 < sonatagreen> unless maybe they have multiple people behind them
21:32 < linkhyrule5> I suspect that as long as it's big enough to map the surface down to normal human resolution
21:32 < sonatagreen> or sherlock holmes style blatant authorial cheating
21:32 < linkhyrule5> and maybe map the whole volume
21:32 < linkhyrule5> that'd be enough
21:33 < linkhyrule5> the problem wouldn't be the quantity so much as transfer rate
21:33 < sonatagreen> so I'd rather stick to 'if superintelligences interact with the forum, they only give it about a human intelligence worth of attention'
21:33 < sonatagreen> which makes int boosting problematic
21:33 < sonatagreen> i mean, unless there's an actual plan to deal with the problems somehow
21:34 < Adelene> > (5/24/2015 9:33:11 PM) sonatagreen: so I'd rather stick to 'if superintelligences interact with the forum, they only give it about a human intelligence worth of attention'
21:34 < Teceler> (I mean, ANNI's mostly ridicolous amount of computing and literal power. And the computing runs into a language issues which isn't built in and she has tons of other things to pay attention to, yeah. She's newly created in universe, but one of the personalities she's drawing from was perpetually very uncertain about morality and kind of magnified that quality sort-of-on-purpose and the other she has a little of is extremely
21:34 < Teceler> alien)
21:34 < linkhyrule5> If we use int boosting, the boosts will go away fast
21:34 < Teceler> yeah
21:34 < Adelene> speaking as someone with highly variable functional intelligence, that doesn't actually work the way you're looking for.
21:35 < Teceler> the int boosting, or...?
21:35 < sonatagreen> the attention limit?
21:35 < linkhyrule5> of course not
21:35 < Adelene> The attention limit.
21:35 < linkhyrule5> but neitehr does int boosting, magic, or conceptual decomposition
21:35 < Adelene> true
21:35 < linkhyrule5> (I really doubt that every possible concept is /really/ write-able unambiguously in terms of sixteen elements. Mindspace has a bigger Kolmogorov complexity than that)
21:35 < sonatagreen> does that mean that "they're not giving the forum their full attention" is not a workable excuse for why an allegedly superintelligent character is behaving like their player is a human?
21:36 < linkhyrule5> (But it works in Entelechy anyway)
21:36 < linkhyrule5> I thnk it's a workable excuse. It's not an accurate one, but SoD is a thing
21:36 < Adelene> I mean, I won't grouse if you want to do it, but it's obviously a handwave rather than a real thing.
21:36 < sonatagreen> SoD?
21:36 < Teceler> Suspension of Disbelief
21:36 < sonatagreen> ah
21:36 < Adelene> yeah
21:38 < Adelene> (So long as smart!me and dumb!me share memory, dumb!me has a distinct advantage over someone who only has a dumb!them.)
21:38 < Adelene> (Because smart!me can leave dumb!me presents.)
21:38 < Teceler> that makes sense
21:38 < Teceler> but I don't think that's taking into a account the kind of parallelism you tend to get with superintelligences
21:39 < Teceler> I could be wrong, though
21:39 < Adelene> I'd expect any superintelligence worth the name to have a system for kicking problems up the heirarchy.
21:39 < sonatagreen> I mean, if we're assuming that smart!me is *busy elsewhere* then that implies that they *could* give presents but in practice won't?
21:40 < sonatagreen> that's a good point though
21:40 < sonatagreen> otoh most problems likely wouldn't be high priority enough to justify kicking up?
21:40 < Adelene> Smart!me would hardly be worth calling that if it didn't make a point of thinking things through ahead of time and leaving the obvious sorts of presents, too.
21:40 < Teceler> yeah, but it has to be more important than whatever else they're working on for that to take effect
21:41 < Adelene> Surprises are still tough, but there's a bonus for most things that are reasonably predictable and some that aren't.
21:41 < sonatagreen> yeah, basically the argument is that even a superintelligence has bounded cognition and opportunity costs
21:41 < sonatagreen> and this forum is not the most on fire thing in its life
21:41 < Adelene> Right.
21:42 < sonatagreen> like, yes, the company has a lot more money than your department's budget, but that doesn't mean you can afford whatever you want
21:42 < sonatagreen> dumb!me *is* the present.
21:43 < Adelene> I'm not sure I'm explaining this well enough.
21:43 < Teceler> I mean, if the forum managed to get more on fire that whatever else plausible was, obviously you'd hit SoD problems, but
21:43 < sonatagreen> sure
21:43 < Teceler> at that point you probably have bigger problems
21:44 < Teceler> Adelene, I do feel sort of like I'm missing something.
21:45 < Adelene> *pokes at words*
21:45 < Teceler> But the way I see it it's not a matter of the intelligence pulling all their processing power together on one thing and being smarter once in a while, even if that's possible, because that would mean not having it on the other things.
21:47 < Adelene> The difference between smart!me and dumb!me is big enough that I don't usually need smart!me to actually sit down and put effort into it to figure out things that stump dumb!me - a moment's passing thought is often enough.
21:47 < Teceler> ah
21:47 < Teceler> hm
21:47 < Adelene> And for a superintelligence I'd expect that difference to be even larger.
21:49 < Adelene> And, like - if a subset of a superintelligence is so cut off from the rest that that doesn't happen even occasionally, I'm not sure it'd meaninfully be called part of the superintelligence at all.
21:51 < Teceler> What I'm picturing is more the superintelligence being composed of lots of processes at about the same level that are focused on different things. One of them is probably data collation and reference, and there's synergy, but
21:52 < sonatagreen> cut off at 'synergy, but'
21:52 < Teceler> but there isn't a central hub that has considerably more power than the rest, which is what I feel like you're picturing?
21:53 < sonatagreen> yeah, I see what you're saying now Ade, might just need to metacausally avoid having superintelligences
21:54 < Adelene> *nod*
21:54 < Adelene> I don't strongly mind the handwave, just - we're already breaking stuff, handwaves are fragile.
21:55 < sonatagreen> (Do you object to being called that? I vaguely recall someone-might-have-been-you opinionated about names. Is there a different non-highlighting thing I should call you? Should I just highlight you a lot?)
21:55 < Teceler> and, yeah, the only reason I would consider having ANNI is that she's /supposed/ to kind of come across as a kid with a ridiculous amount of power.
21:55 < Adelene> Ade is fine.
21:56 < sonatagreen> Ideally I'd prefer to have the high-power characters fade into the background and become more like ground rules than PCs
21:56 < sonatagreen> but obviously I'm not the only person writing in this continuity, so
21:58 < Teceler> hm
21:58 < Teceler> I'm not quite sure exactly how you're defining 'high-power' here
21:59 < sonatagreen> I'm not sure I can correctly formalize my intuition
21:59 < Teceler> which makes it hard for me to form and opinon on that
21:59 < Teceler> *an
22:00 < Teceler> can you give a rough graduation? Like, x is high power, y is not?
22:00 < sonatagreen> but, broadly speaking, higher power involves affecting more people and/or being harder to block/overcome
22:00 < Teceler> that makes sense
22:01 < linkhyrule5> I'm kind of using ME to explore Entelechy right now
22:01 < linkhyrule5> If I get a really good sense of what the setting as a whole is like, I might let him move on and bring in a lower-powered mage
22:01 < linkhyrule5> but for now he's sticking around
22:01 < linkhyrule5> ON a side note, I feel like Procedure 110-Montauk is definitely on the "needs to be fixed" list
22:01 < linkhyrule5> currently brainstorming ideas for that one
22:02 < Teceler> I feel like most of the people with high-powered characters have tried to be polite about it oocly
22:02 < Teceler> And put in limitations
22:02 < Adelene> *returns from afk* Lurker's endgame has her fading out, she'll be aroundish but spending most of her time distributing tech goodie bags to various universes. She might be annoyingly OP for a while before that though, depending.
22:04 < linkhyrule5> I feel like I've been p[retty thorough about not letting ME run roughshod over the setting, yeah
22:05 < Teceler> I feel like how annoying she'd be would depend on... mm. The closest I'm getting is 'whether writers would feel restricted to having worlds that have received such or would not be significantly changed thereby, or flat-out can't'. Which is a really delicate balance
22:05 < sonatagreen> high <-- keeper, Esthfora, she-who-lives-in-her-name, Jupiter brain, Mother Starlight, ME, the Foundation, Leaf currently, daeva, Dotted Lines if he uses his power intelligently, a generic mid-level Dungeon caster, Leaf initially, Andrew, QDS in practice, Dotted Lines in practice, a generic baseline human, Lurker --> low
22:06 < sonatagreen> roughly
22:06 < Teceler> hm
22:07 < Adelene> I can give Lurker a way of scrying other universes that leads to her prioritizing them by things other than 'is it someplace I already know about'.
22:08 < Adelene> Meaning, people with characters from non-Lurked worlds could request a Lurking, but it shouldn't be unusual for that not to have already happened or for the Lurking not to happen immediately or even necessarily at all.
22:09 < Teceler> yeah, that would probably help cut down on that kind of conflict
22:09 < Adelene> On the other hand if someone shows up with a world that's in as rough shape as Carp it'll be hard to justify her not prioritizing that.
22:09 < sonatagreen> maybe sufficiently powerful characters get contacted by (or decide to create) the interplanar equivalent of the United Federation of Planets, and join the larger society at the cost of leaving the little people alone
22:10 < Adelene> Lurker would not bite.
22:10 < sonatagreen> yeah, I can see that
22:11 < sonatagreen> but at the same time, I feel like your plan has the same general sort of "the multiverse is a lot bigger than this forum's little corner of it" pattern to it?
22:11 < Adelene> Yup. :)
22:11 < Teceler> I feel like the key is having IC reasons not to or not to be able to do things that other players don't want, and working that out before it comes up
22:12 < Adelene> Lurker could be lured away into another project, but wouldn't be willing to promise not to come back.
22:12 < Adelene> *nodnod*
22:13 < sonatagreen> but at the same time, I feel like the sort of excuses needed for immovable/unstoppable type conflicts tend to be really general and absolute, so not a lot of room for long-term uncertainty and back-and-forth
22:13 < sonatagreen> like, Esthfora vs. Entelechy is likely to be less interesting than Andrew vs. Galen?
22:14 < sonatagreen> it's hard to play chess with superpowers
22:14 < linkhyrule5> I dunno
22:14 < Teceler> like, linkhyrule, I assume you've been consulting with Captain Virdian's player about that thing. You would want to talk to Archangel's before making plans for Keter
22:14 < linkhyrule5> Andrew vs. Galen would kind of bore me
22:14 < linkhyrule5> I'm a high fantasy fan
22:14 < linkhyrule5> I really really like seeing things that normal humans can't do
22:14 < linkhyrule5> What's the Haruhi quote
22:14 < Teceler> well, it depends on how well defined the powers are
22:15 < Teceler> and how interesting the characters are
22:15 < linkhyrule5> "I have no interest in ordinary humans.
22:15 < linkhyrule5> However, if there are any aliens, time travels, espers, or sliders present, contact me!"
22:15 < linkhyrule5> ... er.
22:15 < Teceler> ha
22:15 < linkhyrule5> ...
22:15 < sonatagreen> I like powers that are really non-general?
22:15 < linkhyrule5> I may have gotten caught up in planning.
22:15 < linkhyrule5> ...
22:15 < Teceler> I mean, I get that you're just thinking about it, bu--
22:15 < linkhyrule5> I should probably go let him know that I have a very convoluted plan in the works.
22:15 < Teceler> ah
22:15 < linkhyrule5> (In my defense, I wasn't going to /implement/ it without asking
22:15 < linkhyrule5> but.
22:15 < linkhyrule5> Still.
22:16 < linkhyrule5> Should probably let him know that planning has been happening)
22:16 < Teceler> I mean, if he doesn't actually want that universe to be rescued in that manner you kind of have a problem
22:16 < linkhyrule5> Yeah, like, my entire goal for Entelechy was "a generalized, fully explained, fully defined magic system", so
22:16 < linkhyrule5> and not really
22:16 < linkhyrule5> there's like 50 points for that to break and not work
22:16 < linkhyrule5> it'd be sad, but
22:17 < sonatagreen> I mean, the limits of what you can do in a small amount of mp could still be really interesting
22:17 < Teceler> yeah, you probably wouldn't have to not try it, there's that
22:17 < Teceler> considering the number of failure points
22:17 < Teceler> (not try it icly, I mean)
22:18 < sonatagreen> but it's like the mandelbrot fractal, right? the interesting part isn't in what you can or can't do, it's in the complexity of the shape of the boundary between them
22:18 < sonatagreen> it should be not immediately obvious whether something is possible or not
22:18 < linkhyrule5> Sometimes
22:19 < linkhyrule5> For me, it's usually more
22:19 < linkhyrule5> "I want to solve this problem, and I want the problem to be solved
22:19 < linkhyrule5> but how do I do it within reasonable rules/nontrivially?"
22:19 < linkhyrule5> Puzzles are a thing i like
22:19 < linkhyrule5> Unsolveable puzzles and tragedies, not so much
22:19 < Teceler> There's a element of fun in watching how something happens even if you know how it ends, yeah
22:20 < sonatagreen> puzzles are a good analogy, yeah, I want there to be things that take effort to realize how they're possible
22:20 < sonatagreen> ~*~complexity~*~
22:21 -!- Kel has joined #backstage
22:21 < Teceler> I think linkhyrule and I had a interesting time trying to work out how to make his Idea work without breaking either setting. That's another kind of puzzle.
22:22 < Teceler> But I think some of what you're talking about is the ic puzzle-solving?
22:22 < sonatagreen> Both ic and ooc, I think.
22:22 < sonatagreen> But leaning more on the ooc.
22:27 < linkhyrule5> IC puzzle-solving is jus ta matter of roleplaying what you've figured out OOC
22:28 < linkhyrule5> OOC puzzle-solving, yeah, is ultimately going to be more about worldbuilding
22:28 < Teceler> I feel like the easiest way to keep from trivializing conflicts might be to build in a cost for pulling out the big guns. So they only get used when they're really needed (ie on the same/similar power level)
22:28 < linkhyrule5> most of your constraints are "what you want your character to be able to do," since you can ultimately go God Mode Sue on everything if you're willing to be bored
22:28 < linkhyrule5> ^ that
22:29 < Teceler> I don't know, ic problem-solving can sometimes be 'watch the character work out/explain this thing that has been puzzling'
22:29 < Teceler> but I know everyone doesn't work that way
22:29 < linkhyrule5> If ME runs into, I dunno, the TITANs, he will suck it up and sacrifice his entire demiplane or something for a direct cross-Truth interference. Andthen he will not have a demiplane for an OOC month at least
22:29 < linkhyrule5> It will be a real, serious cost to him
22:30 < Adelene> *nod*
22:30 < Teceler> I somehow doubt he will be running headlong into the TITANs, that seems like a bad idea oocly and it's not as though I have any interesting ideas that would involve it
22:32 < Adelene> I've already more or less shot down the idea of costs with Lurker; in her case it's more going to be a combination of humility - she's never going to quite get how powerful she is - and that the forum is never going to have all her attention.
22:32 < Teceler> (the 'running into the TITANs' part more than the cost of dealing with it, if you want him to have to deal with the fallout of something like that I'm sure you can find something to cause that)
22:33 < linkhyrule5> it's just an example
22:33 < Teceler> I got that, I just felt like I needed to respond to it
22:33 < Adelene> The problem with Lurker is more that she's going to uplift Leaf, and Leaf doesn't admit of so many restrictions. ^^
22:33 < linkhyrule5> I agree taht running into TITANs would not be a good idea
22:33 < linkhyrule5> Especially since it's not clear /who/ would win that one, and I'd rather not my character get exiled due to death :P
22:34 < Teceler> Ade, well, in that case some of the cost is 'I could be somewhere else helping people'. There's opportunity cost, too
22:34 < linkhyrule5> ... We may want to discuss how willing we are to let our characters die at some point, but
22:34 < Adelene> That too.
22:35 < linkhyrule5> I mean, ultimately, I suspect that our worlds are going to end up looking like the Belltower does
22:35 < Adelene> I would *like* to get Lurker to endgame? But if it would actually make sense for her to die at some point before that I'm not going to be too shaken up over it.
22:35 < linkhyrule5> (and on a side note sometime you should ask Grigori what that means to a Mage player, it's kind of hilarios)
22:36 < linkhyrule5> that is to say, mostly sunshine and roses because the problems have bee solved by stupid amounts of magic :P
22:36 < linkhyrule5> And then we'll move on or something
22:36 < linkhyrule5> ... I would /not/ be okay with ME dying, I think.
22:36 < linkhyrule5> I am not okay with death on any level in any mode in any place, so.
22:36 < linkhyrule5> I think if it comes to that he'll just drift away and not get involved in whatever would have killed him, and switch characters
22:37 < linkhyrule5> Which would be the same from an OOC perspective, but.
22:37 < Teceler> I mean, there's a distinction between getting killed and getting knocked out of the game for ages to recover
22:37 < sonatagreen> I mean, the keeper, but
22:37 < linkhyrule5> true
22:37 < linkhyrule5> and I'm still wavering on the keepr
22:37 < linkhyrule5> because, yannow
22:37 < Kel> Or like, getting routinely kidnapped away from the forum
22:38 < linkhyrule5> it's an avenue for stupidly broken things to escape Entelechy, which we've agreed is "too much on fire"
22:38 < linkhyrule5> Hello, Kel. WHo are you, Kel? :P
22:38 < Teceler> which OOCly can amount to the same thing by icly might be easier
22:38 < Kel> linkhyrule5, Hi! I'm the author of Botanical Engineer, Dotted Lines, and Lantern!
22:38 < Teceler> I mean, you could probably get a ruling that the keeper would only reinstantate Entelechy things with serious restrictions to make them work with the rest
22:38 < Teceler> oh, hey
22:39 < Teceler> Thorn is currently being adorably concerned (at least from my perspective) about Dotted Lines
22:39 < Kel> I also find the concern endearing! :)
22:40 < Kel> Dotted Lines is happy and slightly confused
22:41 < linkhyrule5> Oh hello
22:41 < Teceler> if I knew why she decided to be concerned about him in particular I would tell you, but I haven't the slightest idea.
22:41 < linkhyrule5> ME will probably include Dotted Lines' world on the list of worlds that need saving he'll be posting soonish
22:42 < Teceler> was she right about him deliberately making suspiciously specific denials about things?
22:42 -!- Kel has quit
22:42 < linkhyrule5> Dotted Lines will probably bevery confused
22:43 -!- Kel has joined #backstage
22:43 < linkhyrule5> Dotted Lines will probably bevery confused
22:44 < Kel> sorry my computer crashed and i missed everything said after the last thing i said (I'm on a tablet now)
22:45 < Kel> is there somewhere i could find logs?
22:45 < sonatagreen> yeah, but for now I'll just paste you in pm
22:45 < Teceler> sonatagreen has been keeping them, but I'm not sure if she's put them somewhere
22:46 < Teceler> ah
22:49 < Kel> yes he's intentionally been making suspiciously specific denials
22:49 < Teceler> I think Thorn might have had a similar reaction to Lurking if she had had less trouble parsing her posts, but I'm not sure, I'm not modeling that bit very well.
22:51 < Teceler> oh, good, I was a little worried she was going to interpret something as that that was not meant as such at all
22:53 < Kel> nope! it was definitely meant as such, along the lines of "beings that can only be described as definitely not angels" denial levels.
22:53 < Teceler> heh
22:58 < Kel> he would be at least a little confused, and probably agree that it needs fixing but be too worried about accidentally getting his town taken over by something even worse to accept offers of help.
22:59 < Adelene> Lurking's world should make the bullshit list, yeah, once you're parsing her well enough to get coherent data about it. She's not personally highly inconvenienced, but those elves are definitely some bullshit and the goblins aren't much better.
23:00 < linkhyrule5> They're on the list, but like
23:00 < linkhyrule5> Top of the list is CV's world
23:00 < linkhyrule5> Then Keter
23:00 < Adelene> *nod*
23:00 < Teceler> I don't think it's /just/ messed up worlds, because Prism definitely doesn't qualify.
23:00 < linkhyrule5> Then Inavet's
23:01 < linkhyrule5> (Yeah, it's generally "this world needs someone to save it
23:01 < linkhyrule5> whether from physics or people doesn't matter")
23:01 < Teceler> Well, CV's world is literally falling apart into nothing, it makes sense for that to be first
23:01 < Adelene> *nod*
23:01 < linkhyrule5> Then some order of Dotted Line's and Lurking's, depending on how big the problem is in DL
23:01 < Adelene> Lurking will eventually be renovating her world and I'd rather that be left to her, but so long as people check with her first before actually doing anything that should go fine.
23:02 < linkhyrule5> The World of Darkness is above that tier on "problems", but ends up below because all its problems are hard to solve
23:02 < linkhyrule5> (we may not even get that far before she manages yet, yeah)
23:02 < Adelene> *nod*
23:02 < linkhyrule5> Technically the Entelechy is on the list too, but it mostly has its apocalypsi in hand
23:03 < linkhyrule5> Oh, wait, Eclipse Phase is definitely on this list
23:03 < Teceler> Lurking having a plan seems like it should put Carp lower priority than otherwise. --does she icly have the plan yet?
23:03 < linkhyrule5> uh, somewhere around Inavet's, it's not urgent urgent like Keter but
23:03 < linkhyrule5> it still kind of sucks
23:03 < Adelene> Nope
23:03 < linkhyrule5> Though actually, the post may put Dotted LIne's first, since Eclipse seems /stable/ at least even if it's not awful
23:04 < linkhyrule5> *not great
23:04 < Teceler> They have got the worst of it under control, and -- yeah.
23:04 < Adelene> She hasn't ICly realized that she might want to plan on that level, she's still worried about personally surviving the next six months.
23:04 < linkhyrule5> Dotted Line's has active reeducation, nope nope nope
23:04 < linkhyrule5> Leaf's is pretty not in bad shape already
23:04 < linkhyrule5> or at least odesn't have big cosmic/global problems
23:05 < linkhyrule5> What else.. Daevinity /is/ a problem, that
23:05 < linkhyrule5> ... most of the worlds in existence are on this list
23:05 < linkhyrule5> T.T
23:05 < Adelene> *chuckle*
23:05 < Teceler> prioritize
23:05 < Kel> what was it someone said?
23:05 < Teceler> which ones are in the most trouble and getting worse the fastest and he can do the most about?
23:06 < Kel> that almost no sentient beings on the forum come from acceptable world s?
23:06 < Teceler> 'the number is rapidly dropping'
23:06 < Teceler> or something like that
23:06 < sonatagreen> the proportion is approaching zero
23:06 < Teceler> that
23:07 < Kel> yeah!
23:07 < linkhyrule5> CV and Keter are both cost effective
23:07 < linkhyrule5> CV he can pull off, as above
23:08 < linkhyrule5> Keter just has loooots of nasty multiverse ending things, so if he's ever going to pull out the big guns Keter's a good place for it
23:08 < Teceler> Re: Reeducation, Part of the reason Thorn's latest response to Dotted Lines got delayed was that another instance of her template is going 'yeah, getting kidnapped and tortured tends to make me jumpy too' and Thorn is going no we can't say that and I'm going 'did anything like that even happen to Thorn' and yeah
23:08 < linkhyrule5> loooool
23:08 < linkhyrule5> OOC debates
23:09 < linkhyrule5> Inavet's world, not a good place for big guns, but informational effects and shorign up organizations and weird conceptual thigns like that would be really helpful there
23:09 < Teceler> Keter is as cost-effective as Archangel's player wants it to be, but your point is made.
23:09 < linkhyrule5> (man, I talk a lot. Let me know if I'm clogging it up too much, will you?)
23:09 < linkhyrule5> Well, yeah
23:09 < linkhyrule5> All of this is ME's list, really
23:09 < linkhyrule5> at any point the relevant world-writers can jsut go "nope"
23:09 < linkhyrule5> (Inavet: "Yes?")
23:09 < Kel> you're amount of talking is fine by me!
23:09 < Adelene> Inavet's world is likely to have a gratuitously invisible kobold applied to it. ^^
23:09 < linkhyrule5> loool
23:09 < Teceler> hee
23:10 < linkhyrule5> well, that might not solve everything
23:10 < linkhyrule5> a lot of the stuff ME would help with is things like "stable, safe change of regime"
23:10 < linkhyrule5> turns out fate magic and social Charms are great for that
23:10 < Teceler> Yeah, but some of the ways they can go nope might make it harder for him to do things, is I think what I was trying to say
23:10 < linkhyrule5> Ah, I see
23:10 < Adelene> I need to go work on things.
23:10 < linkhyrule5> yeah, things will move up or down after scrying
23:10 < Teceler> *might be to make
23:11 < Kel> yeah but not everyone is necessarily going to trust that change
23:11 < Teceler> Good luck with your things
23:11 < linkhyrule5> (I still need to run the "ME scries WoD, gets Gauntlet'd, nopes the Gauntlet and has to go find a more subtle way of finding things out" scene)
23:11 < linkhyrule5> good luck, Ade!
23:12 < Kel> good luck!
23:28 < Teceler> I'm going to go get some sleep, I will be back in the morning probably
23:30 < linkhyrule5> lol
23:30 < linkhyrule5> night
23:30 < sonatagreen> Since it's quieted down a bit, I'm going to take this opportunity to paste the log into the forum.
23:30 < Teceler> do trim out the addresses in the join/parts
23:30 < sonatagreen> yeah