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Post by Grigori on May 22, 2015 16:44:08 GMT
Three things:
1: My personal interpretation is that 'Truth' is a somewhat broader concept than 'world-cluster'. Different clusters which are metaphysically similar may be a part of the same 'Truth', while remaining different cluster-wise. Indeed, Truth is probably the factor that determines the 'distance' between clusters.
2: The unique abilities noted to Entelechy residents may be due in part to the fact that they are aware of and comfortable with manipulating the concept of 'Truth', thus allowing them to interact more easily with clusters in different 'Truths'. To them, the 'distance' implied by Truth differences is a simply a matter of understanding the relevant metaphysical point of view.
3: The Entelechy probably needs its own Backstage thread, given that this discussion has very little to do with the World of Darkness.
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Post by Daniel H on May 22, 2015 16:53:51 GMT
I agree wholeheartedly with point 3. I would agree with point 2, but it depends on point 1, and I’m not sure I understand that. It seems similar to Kappa’s suggestion, and could possibly work, but that doesn’t seem to quite fit the flavor that the Entelechy is going for.
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Post by Mother Starlight on May 22, 2015 17:14:29 GMT
3. Agreed and moved.
1. It seems to me that e.g. Alethia and Chamomile are in very similar Truths but very distant clusters. Truth might best correspond to an aspect of "rhyming".
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Post by Daniel H on May 22, 2015 18:37:43 GMT
In that case I’m still not sure what the differences is between a Truth and a family. Maybe there isn’t one, except for the term Truth being more precise and the term family not appearing on this board.
Or are you specifically mentioning Alethia and Chamomile because, despite the similarities like dæmons and witch magic, they have different rules about Dust and afterlives (at least I assume that Chamomilian Dust doesn’t work like in Alethia or HDM canon)? I would have called them still part of the same family but not the same Truth because of that (if we were using Kappa’s proposed definition of Truth).
I still prefer option 1 to a hybrid definition like this (and I’ve changed my mind and prefer it to option 2 also). More importantly, I think ME prefers option 1, and he’s running the Entelechy. If you think of a Truth almost like a different continuity, then it makes sense that all the other worlds are in the same Truth. The Entelechy can’t get Milliways doors or be found by the keeper for the same reason I can’t: I am in a completely different Truth from the MWF Truth. I see the communication with the Entelechy almost as fourth-wall breaking, except it’s breaking one of the three walls which separate different stages (with different plays) instead of breaking the “wall” separating the stage from the audience.
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Post by Grigori on May 22, 2015 19:03:37 GMT
I see the communication with the Entelechy almost as fourth-wall breaking, except it’s breaking one of the three walls which separate different stages (with different plays) instead of breaking the “wall” separating the stage from the audience. I'm on board with that definition. I suppose the glowfic term 'metacausal' is probably a better fit than 'metaphysical', for describing Truth groupings; we're talking less about the IC fact that different worlds have different properties, and more about the IC implications imposed by the OOC structure of the fics.
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Post by Meletiti Entelecheiai on May 22, 2015 19:46:00 GMT
Three things: 1: My personal interpretation is that 'Truth' is a somewhat broader concept than 'world-cluster'. Different clusters which are metaphysically similar may be a part of the same 'Truth', while remaining different cluster-wise. Indeed, Truth is probably the factor that determines the 'distance' between clusters. 2: The unique abilities noted to Entelechy residents may be due in part to the fact that they are aware of and comfortable with manipulating the concept of 'Truth', thus allowing them to interact more easily with clusters in different 'Truths'. To them, the 'distance' implied by Truth differences is a simply a matter of understanding the relevant metaphysical point of view. 3: The Entelechy probably needs its own Backstage thread, given that this discussion has very little to do with the World of Darkness. I see the communication with the Entelechy almost as fourth-wall breaking, except it’s breaking one of the three walls which separate different stages (with different plays) instead of breaking the “wall” separating the stage from the audience. I'm on board with that definition. I suppose the glowfic term 'metacausal' is probably a better fit than 'metaphysical', for describing Truth groupings; we're talking less about the IC fact that different worlds have different properties, and more about the IC implications imposed by the OOC structure of the fics. Yes, this most matches my intuition about Truths. Particularly Grigori's 2. 3. Agreed and moved. 1. It seems to me that e.g. Alethia and Chamomile are in very similar Truths but very distant clusters. Truth might best correspond to an aspect of "rhyming". Mm. I feel like Alethia to Chamomile would be a very long gate jump but a very short Truth-hop; that seems to me like Truth is an entirely different way of thinking about distance. Sort of like distance through the Nevernever.
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Post by Daniel H on May 22, 2015 21:32:08 GMT
So does this mean that without some other kind of special circumstances, all the non-Entelechy worlds in MWF will be in the same Truth, or will not? You still seem to be going back and forth between the two. Either that or I’m misunderstanding what you mean about the Truth-distance of Alethia and Chamomile.
Also, gate in particular has no concept of distance. Since there is a sort of loosely-defined distance metric for planes some of the time (which Captain Viridian and Kystle magic use), I think I understand what you mean, though. Cypress, Prime, and their twins all working together couldn’t hope to portal to Alethia; anybody in the Entelechy could get from one to the other with a quick walk.
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Post by Meletiti Entelecheiai on May 22, 2015 22:02:19 GMT
All the other worlds currently on the Forum are in roughly the same Truth; I think I might quibble that they're in separate but extremely close Truths, but it's like a bunch of people being in the same room and one guy on Mars. The exceptions so far are the Orz and maybe the World of Darkness, just because Mage-y things look a lot like Entelechy things. Haven't decided on that last.
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Kappa
Backstage
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World: IRL
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Post by Kappa on May 22, 2015 22:10:06 GMT
I'm uncertain of the keeper's Truth-related position, but as of my new understanding of Truths, I think that if the rest of the forum worlds are standing in a room together and the Entelechy is on Mars, Esthfora is somewhere in the Andromeda galaxy. (This doesn't give her any trouble reaching the rest of us because she works primarily in yet another measure of distance, one that relates to minds instead of worlds. When she talks about people being close to her or far away from her, the distance she's talking about is substantially related to whether or not the person is one of my characters.)
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Post by Meletiti Entelecheiai on May 22, 2015 23:39:39 GMT
Mm.
On the one hand, a being which is its own universe, that lives within its own world-egg/Reality Marble, is certainly something in a strange Truth if anything is.
On the other hand, this is rapidly becoming more complicated than I've already intended.
I think it'd be best to have it not come up for a bit until I figure things out more, if that's fine with you.
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Kappa
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World: IRL
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Post by Kappa on May 22, 2015 23:57:01 GMT
Yeah. Like, Esthfora's universe is super weird, but the exact way in which its weirdness interacts with the definition of a Truth doesn't need to be defined ahead of time. (It may not even be defined at all. Talking about Esthfora's location in any world-related coordinate system could be like talking about the mass of the number five. But we don't need to decide that right away.)
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Post by Daniel H on May 23, 2015 0:02:21 GMT
The “rapidly becoming more complicated” is why I like option 1 so much. It is a firm dividing line which simplifies a lot of the other stuff. But apparently I was wrong about ME preferring that one.
ME, when you do get it figured out, can you explain in what way a Truth differs from a world (all one contiguous usually-3d possibly-infinite space), a world cluster/world sheaf (a collection of worlds with their own internal rules for traveling between them which simply don’t apply outside of that or similar clusters), and a family of worlds (a collection of worlds or clusters which aren’t technically related to each other but work quite similarly to one another)? You seem to verbally support my idea of “a Truth is a collection of worlds that can interact with each other in any way, where some cross-Truth communication can exist given extremely special circumstances”, but then you also talk about a Truth as concept somewhat between cluster and family (and orthogonal to both of those in a way I don’t quite understand) and about all the different worlds being different Truths. Either I am not conveying what I was thinking, or I misunderstand you somehow (probably the latter, because what I was thinking was what I thought you originally meant).
Kappa, just based on the word, I have a hard time imagining Esthfora occupying a Truth other than the one the other characters occupy. She might not occupy any Truth at all, but since she says things that are little-t true for the people she’s talking to, I don’t see how she can be in a Truth which is not the one everybody else is in.
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