Note: I have never played DF; this is just from the wiki. I could be wrong, etc.
If MP is based on the (noncanon) Magic skill, it should count as an attribute. Would that mean that Lurking’s max MP could go down also, with rust?
An Earthling does not learn a little about everything ever if they get into a serious fight, but does gain MP. How does this mesh with the system trying to fit itself as closely as possible to the native model?
How would this interact with momentum-world sorcery?
Wait, if I was right that it should be an attribute there’d need to be some change, since attributes have a maximum (which in this case would be zero, and I don’t think you want to actually prevent Lurking from ever learning magic).
Also, any use of the skill will help. I don’t see why it has to be native. Try any or all of the following:
Teach Lurking about Facet magic, and her her use that.
Summon a daeva, say “For weird reasons we need to summon daeva many times. Would you mind if we summoned and dismissed you right away several times in quick succession, and paid you <appropriate thing> each time?”, print out a bunch of almost-complete properly-bound circles for the daeva who first agrees, and have Lurking fill them each in. Summoning doesn’t grant MP, but dismissing does.
Try again for parlor tricks, now that summoning has been demonstrated in the world.
Alternately, you can assume that the DF world has a way to increase soul attributes without exercising any of the given skills, even if that’s noncanon (for example, dual n-back to increase the memory attribute) or that the MP attribute is trained by combat skills for some reason (not particularly reasonable).
Magic is pretty clearly the type of thing that would be a skill - attributes and traits are more about personality, attributes being the things that respond to nurture and traits being the things that don't. Magic is probably related to several of the soul attributes, though, so Lurker will train up one or more of [focus, willpower, creativity, intuition, memory] by doing it, which will make her better at magic in a separate way from her magic skill and therefore MP going up.
Skill rust would apply to the magic skill, but it's pretty slow - I'd have to check the details because DF handles time funny, but iirc you can retire a dwarf completely for 5+ years and they'll only lose a level or two. For shorter breaks, all rust means is you're out of practice the first couple times you do something while you refresh your memory, and even that doesn't happen without several months of not using a skill at all. (And attributes don't rust, so she'd still get whatever bonus from those.)
Also, DF/Carp exp isn't an across-the-board thing; each skill gets its own exp meter.
(If I was trying to implement Dungeon's actual magic system on Carp's stats system, I would actually add a mechanic where MP is a direct function of Willpower, since that does more or less exactly what's been described with the 'go through traumatic shit and come out stronger' thing. But that'd be very nonstandard for a DF mechanic, so.)
ETA: Lurking could train her soul attributes other ways than by doing magic, but that wouldn't help her get MP according to standard DF mechanics. It would help her not go splat the first time she tries to use Carp magic, though, if she does that.
Oh. I was thinking of MP as being derived from the magic skill, sort of like how potential item quality is when you're crafting. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a description of that relationship on the wiki, but basically each skill level comes with an upper and lower bound for what quality levels the items you craft with that skill will be, which is further modified by the relevant attributes for that skill and things like tiredness and hunger, and then you roll within those limits to find out what quality level you actually get. This obviously only works 'sort of', but mapping the spells to the quality levels and saying that a person at X modified skill level can cast spells of Y quality in Z time seems like it'd work well enough to me. (Or do the rolling thing and if you fail to hit the 'quality level' that the spell requires you go splat, but no skill in canon DF has that kind of effect on a failed roll and Dungeon magic seems like it's meant to be a little bit more user-friendly than Carp's, so...)
Unless I've really missed something, yeah? I mean, it applies approximately, there are limits to what she can do that run more or less along those lines, there's a reason I mentioned it taking a certain amount of time to cast a spell, but the most obvious way of trying to make Dungeon magic happen within the logic of DF's system doesn't really allow for it.
Ability/inclination to keep working when hungry or tired is based on I think the willpower attribute, but even if you make it depend on a different attribute that's not a very good mechanical match unless Dungeon's magic prioritizes keeping something MP-like over most other concerns.
Post by Mother Starlight on May 16, 2015 22:23:04 GMT
I don't have clear specific guidelines for how much Dungeon magic works to fit in. Very broadly speaking:
* it will be "translated" where possible * but is somewhat more reluctant to be reshaped * though it's more strongly attracted to stat-ish and/or magical native systems * if something about it doesn't fit into the existing native paradigm, that aspect will instead be introduced as a new additional mechanic
Stat rust applies to the magic skill. Magic that is neither Carp nor Dungeon does exercise the magic skill.
So would you consider MP no longer existing to be reshaping, and thus introduce a new mechanic, translation? If the former, what would the magic skill affect other than max MP? Time to invent, learn, or scribe spells?
EDIT: I think the border between translation and reshaping was the main point of disagreement last night.
* if something about it doesn't fit into the existing native paradigm, that aspect will instead be introduced as a new additional mechanic
It seems like this comes down to whether the 'something about it' is MP in particular or the more abstract 'more experienced magic users can cast larger spells, and can cast smaller spells more easily'.
Also, for reference purposes.
In DF, using most skills always grants 30 df!exp for that skill. (DF doesn't have the concept of harder tasks granting more exp and doesn't grant exp simply for surviving stuff.) Assuming that this is true, Lurking will attain the following levels after casting the given total number of spells (i.e. the counter doesn't reset at each level):
Exp gain does continue after L+5, but there are no new titles and I'm not sure how level numbers would be calculated. I'm inclined to say that Lurking would have 1 MP at Dabbling and 10 x lvl MP at all the other levels, though.
Post by Mother Starlight on May 17, 2015 2:58:02 GMT
Daniel, I'm not sure I parsed that.
Lurking, I have two issues with your formula: (1) mp cost generally scales with the square of the D&D spell level, and (2) based on the titles, skill level 15 should correspond to about 100 mp. (100 mp corresponds to 9th level spells in D&D, which is the last step before epic levels.) Here's what I mathed up:
skill mp 0 1 1 2 2 5 3 8 4 12 5 16 6 21 7 27 8 34 9 41 10 49 11 58 12 67 13 77 14 88 15 100 16 112 17 125 18 138 19 153 20 168 (I started with the points (-1,0) (0,1) (15,100), assumed a quadratic function, and derived y = (7/20)x2 + (27/20)x + 1.)
You said Dungeon magic would translate itself, but not reshape itself. My question was whether changing to a system without MP would count as translating or reshaping, and relatedly whether that would cause it to tack MP onto the DF system. The answer seems to be that it will keep MP even if that does not fit the target system.