(7/29/2015 3:06:41 AM) MotherStarlight entered the room.
(7/29/2015 3:06:41 AM) mode (+o MotherStarlight) by ChanServ
(7/29/2015 3:09:58 AM) Sky left the room (quit: Quit: Leaving).
(7/29/2015 3:56:29 AM) PDV is now known as PDVanished
(7/29/2015 4:05:07 AM) Link left the room (quit: Connection reset by peer).
(7/29/2015 4:05:29 AM) Link entered the room.
(7/29/2015 4:48:36 AM) Link left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 181 seconds).
(7/29/2015 5:31:34 AM) Andygal left the room (quit: Connection reset by peer).
(7/29/2015 5:35:01 AM) Sky entered the room.
(7/29/2015 7:06:51 AM) Kel entered the room.
(7/29/2015 7:07:45 AM) Kel: having the content of tags written ahead of time makes me feel really efficient during the tagging stage
(7/29/2015 7:21:30 AM) Kappa entered the room.
(7/29/2015 7:21:30 AM) mode (+o kappabeta) by ChanServ
(7/29/2015 7:42:12 AM) Kel: Hi!
(7/29/2015 7:42:25 AM) Kel: ... that was really late oops
(7/29/2015 7:55:54 AM) Kel: bye!
(7/29/2015 7:55:58 AM) Kel is now known as Kelaway
(7/29/2015 7:59:18 AM) Kelaway left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 183 seconds).
(7/29/2015 8:37:52 AM) Butcher entered the room.
(7/29/2015 9:04:46 AM) Kelaway entered the room.
(7/29/2015 10:00:50 AM) Sonata entered the room.
(7/29/2015 10:00:50 AM) mode (+o Sonata) by ChanServ
(7/29/2015 10:01:11 AM) Sonata: oh dear, looks like MS went sploot
(7/29/2015 10:01:27 AM) mode (-o MotherStarlight) by Sonata
(7/29/2015 10:01:31 AM) mode (+v MotherStarlight) by Sonata
(7/29/2015 10:19:25 AM) Sonata: aaand she didn't update the logs. looks like someone else needs to do logposting from now on.
(7/29/2015 10:24:59 AM) Sonata: burningbright's avatar is /really/ dark, I thought it was just a black square like the keeper until I saw claimed otherwise in the logs
(7/29/2015 10:28:17 AM) Kappa: is this the part where I point out that the keeper's isn't a black square either XD
(7/29/2015 10:28:24 AM) Sonata: oh dear
(7/29/2015 10:28:32 AM) Kappa: it is a very carefully crafted not quite completely black square!
(7/29/2015 10:28:38 AM) Kappa: there's a really dim horizon in it!
(7/29/2015 10:29:31 AM) Sonata: ...because she's installed air and rock, but /not light/
(7/29/2015 10:29:38 AM) Kappa: it's ok, I can't see it either unless I'm logged in as the keeper (Starless is dark enough that the details of dark avatars stand out)
(7/29/2015 10:29:47 AM) Kappa: hahahahahaha
(7/29/2015 10:29:54 AM) Kappa: yes, she has in fact not installed light
(7/29/2015 10:30:02 AM) Kappa: she doesn't really, like. need it
(7/29/2015 10:30:11 AM) Kappa: she already knows where everything is
(7/29/2015 10:35:15 AM) Teceler|Asleep is now known as Teceler
(7/29/2015 10:37:29 AM) Teceler: dear brain: why did we wake up/get up so late
(7/29/2015 10:42:33 AM) Sonata: Teceler, please help/prod Adelene to post logs when they get on
(7/29/2015 10:42:46 AM) Sonata: and/or do it yourself
(7/29/2015 10:42:52 AM) Sonata: I no longer can
(7/29/2015 10:43:03 AM) ***Sonata aways
(7/29/2015 10:43:05 AM) Sonata left the room (quit: Quit: Leaving).
(7/29/2015 10:43:06 AM) ***Teceler notes to think about when she is more awake
(7/29/2015 11:12:52 AM) FacelessSicker entered the room.
(7/29/2015 11:12:59 AM) FacelessSicker: o/
(7/29/2015 11:13:05 AM) Teceler: hello
(7/29/2015 11:14:14 AM) FacelessSicker: Tisvetaia and Sivuari? Does anyone recognize the templates or they are brand new?
(7/29/2015 11:14:27 AM) Teceler: the lake god is a Steven, iirc
(7/29/2015 11:15:13 AM) FacelessSicker: ah, it fits
(7/29/2015 11:53:43 AM) Sonata entered the room.
(7/29/2015 11:53:43 AM) mode (+o Sonata) by ChanServ
(7/29/2015 11:55:07 AM) Sonata: Is there a Sims knockoff/clone for linux?
(7/29/2015 11:55:26 AM) Teceler: I don't think so?
(7/29/2015 11:55:29 AM) ***Teceler just uses wine
(7/29/2015 12:25:41 PM) Sonata left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 180 seconds).
(7/29/2015 1:05:32 PM) VerdanZZZ left the room (quit: Quit:
www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client).
(7/29/2015 1:15:43 PM) Butcher left the room (quit: Quit:
www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client).
(7/29/2015 1:26:41 PM) FacelessSicker left the room (quit: Quit:
www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client).
(7/29/2015 1:32:04 PM) Teceler: ...
(7/29/2015 1:37:50 PM) Andygal entered the room.
(7/29/2015 1:40:33 PM) Andygal: Hi
(7/29/2015 1:40:38 PM) Teceler: hello
(7/29/2015 2:07:27 PM) Adelene: (Sky: Kit visiting the ice beasts can probably be arranged. ^^ )
(7/29/2015 2:09:21 PM) Adelene: (Like, there is only so much effort Lurker is going to put into that, but she's also not going to take 'we're Kit's parents and we don't want that happening' as a given, or as a good reason if they say it outright.)
(7/29/2015 2:15:01 PM) Sky: I suspected she might not. I don't think Kit would think to ask outright, though, it would depend on context / if it came up?
(7/29/2015 2:15:10 PM) Adelene: *nod*
(7/29/2015 2:15:53 PM) Adelene: Also it might not actually be possible. Depends on if Kit has a photo of the relevant place, I bet; Lurker is too busy/stressed to be willing to make an expedition of it right now.
(7/29/2015 2:16:44 PM) Kappa: Cordelia's got some downtime and is reading the forum
(7/29/2015 2:16:45 PM) Sky: mmm. yeah, she does not have a photo.
(7/29/2015 2:16:56 PM) Kappa: she might go ask if Kit wants to visit the icebeast
(7/29/2015 2:17:03 PM) Sky: ooh
(7/29/2015 2:17:06 PM) Kappa: I think if Kit can identify a *particular ice beast* to gate to, that might work
(7/29/2015 2:17:29 PM) Sky: that she can do.
(7/29/2015 2:17:34 PM) Kappa: k
(7/29/2015 2:17:56 PM) Adelene: awww ^^
(7/29/2015 2:18:09 PM) Adelene: there was a thing I wanted to ask
(7/29/2015 2:18:18 PM) Kappa: so Cordelia probably just went and asked and if Kit wanted to go visit the ice beasts, Cordelia... would probably *notify* her parents and assure them that she would go with Kit and Kit would be just fine
(7/29/2015 2:18:32 PM) Kappa: if they still squawk I'm not sure which way she leans, but would they?
(7/29/2015 2:20:28 PM) Adelene: (Also note Cordelia has an invisibility cloak now.)
(7/29/2015 2:20:36 PM) Kappa: heh
(7/29/2015 2:20:38 PM) Kappa: yes
(7/29/2015 2:21:01 PM) Adelene: (And if Kit doesn't mind being held, they can probably share pretty easily.)
(7/29/2015 2:21:06 PM) Sky: hm... they are reassured by Cordelia but her dad wants to go with her.
(7/29/2015 2:21:11 PM) Kappa: heh
(7/29/2015 2:21:19 PM) Kappa: that's fine probably, unless kit objects?
(7/29/2015 2:21:31 PM) Sky: no, that works
(7/29/2015 2:21:34 PM) Kappa: k
(7/29/2015 2:22:18 PM) Adelene: It turns out that the suggested method for 'breaking' Tk is to burn them; given this, Lurker has therefore gone looking for fire-producing things that are more convenient than the flint and iron pyrite she already had.
(7/29/2015 2:22:29 PM) Kappa: Hee.
(7/29/2015 2:22:45 PM) Kappa: This being Barrayar, there, uh... sure are fire-producing things available ^^
(7/29/2015 2:22:50 PM) Adelene: This is going to come up onscreen so I kinda need to know what if anything she has now.
(7/29/2015 2:22:51 PM) Teceler: pfft
(7/29/2015 2:23:00 PM) Kappa: but I imagine a plasma arc is overkill and then some for her purposes
(7/29/2015 2:23:06 PM) Adelene: yes.
(7/29/2015 2:23:08 PM) Teceler: xd
(7/29/2015 2:23:12 PM) Teceler: *XD
(7/29/2015 2:23:14 PM) Kappa: also she wouldn't just find one lying around
(7/29/2015 2:23:20 PM) Adelene: One would hope.
(7/29/2015 2:23:30 PM) Kappa: XD Weapon safety is important!
(7/29/2015 2:24:02 PM) Kappa: anyway hmm... It's probably Cordelia who'd have fire-starting utility tools of a less-than-military scale
(7/29/2015 2:24:04 PM) Adelene: She's going to start out looking at places that are more obviously fire-related; she can actually make a pretty decent guess at a fireplace being a fireplace if it has a chimney which I bet it does if they have one.
(7/29/2015 2:24:20 PM) Andygal: the Vorkosigans are not fucking idiots.
(7/29/2015 2:24:29 PM) Adelene: (She may think to ask Cordelia but only after she's made a decent attempt at finding one on her own.)
(7/29/2015 2:24:30 PM) Kappa: hee
(7/29/2015 2:24:40 PM) Andygal: they aren ot going to leave deadly weapons lying around
(7/29/2015 2:25:02 PM) Kappa: Yeah, the fireplace would be a logical spot to leave such a thing if such a thing were to be left *anywhere*
(7/29/2015 2:25:16 PM) Adelene: Also, this happened while Miles was on his trip, back when she first got her necklace.
(7/29/2015 2:26:55 PM) Kappa: I'm trying to decide what form the fire-starting widget would take and whether she would leave it near the fireplace, and I am being thwarted by the fact that it is too warm. I think I'll go have a shower and then come back and turn on the air conditioning and try again.
(7/29/2015 2:27:08 PM) Adelene: ok :)
(7/29/2015 2:47:35 PM) Sky: I also wonder to what extent Kit and her parents can get Nexus's internet translated; I wouldn't think the forum could help with that unless they manually feed everything through it? but, like, in a couple sandboxes Nexus had a computer thingy that could be taught someone's language and translate for them, if that exists here it would probably work well enough.
(7/29/2015 2:48:20 PM) Adelene: That might have been Eclipse rather than Nexus.
(7/29/2015 2:48:34 PM) Andygal: Nope was Nexus
(7/29/2015 2:48:54 PM) Andygal: Eclipse has not appeared in sandboxes yet.
(7/29/2015 2:49:08 PM) Teceler: I remember /Warp/ having something like that
(7/29/2015 2:49:11 PM) Teceler: but not Nexus
(7/29/2015 2:49:20 PM) Adelene: If you mean non-MWF threads, you might be thinking of the Bell's pen?
(7/29/2015 2:49:36 PM) Adelene: Which we don't have.
(7/29/2015 2:49:56 PM) Sky:
inourhead.dreamwidth.org/334.html?thread=55630#cmt55630(7/29/2015 2:51:56 PM) Adelene: hmm.
(7/29/2015 2:52:31 PM) ***Andygal shrugs
(7/29/2015 2:52:38 PM) Andygal: ask kappabeta when they get back
(7/29/2015 2:52:42 PM) Adelene: mmhmm
(7/29/2015 2:58:37 PM) Link entered the room.
(7/29/2015 2:59:07 PM) Adelene: o/
(7/29/2015 2:59:13 PM) Teceler: hello link
(7/29/2015 2:59:18 PM) Andygal: Hi
(7/29/2015 2:59:20 PM) Link: o/
(7/29/2015 2:59:33 PM) Link: Floydian Lands is officially ready to be hacked at by other people!
(7/29/2015 2:59:37 PM) Link: Unfortunately I'm still figuring out hosting
(7/29/2015 2:59:38 PM) Link: >.>
(7/29/2015 3:00:12 PM) MTC left the room (quit: Quit: ~ Trillian -
www.trillian.im ~).
(7/29/2015 3:01:10 PM) Kappa: Nexus does have translator programs that can learn new languages; they're way better than anything we've got now, but they still flub up once in a while or have difficulty figuring out some things, especially when the language they're learning is as weird as alternate-universe languages probably are
(7/29/2015 3:01:45 PM) Kappa: So not bug-free seamless translation like the forum, but enough to browse the internet with, if you sit with it for a few hours every so often and play its mind-numbing language-learning games so it can pick up vocabulary
(7/29/2015 3:02:45 PM) PDVanished is now known as PDV
(7/29/2015 3:03:00 PM) PDV: link, is that something you can stick on Heroku?
(7/29/2015 3:03:07 PM) Sky: okay. Kit's mom will do that. Their language is fairly Earthish, luckily, mostly Korean with English influence.
(7/29/2015 3:03:17 PM) Link: Heroku?
(7/29/2015 3:03:31 PM) Link: Also I already got a VPS, I just haven't heard back from them yet
(7/29/2015 3:03:45 PM) Link: no, wait, I heard back, I just need to actually upload the things and set it up
(7/29/2015 3:03:52 PM) Link: and possibly get a domain name
(7/29/2015 3:04:01 PM) ***Kappa catches up on chat logs
(7/29/2015 3:04:05 PM) Kappa: Pills still exist in Nexus.
(7/29/2015 3:04:24 PM) Link: anyway, the ultimate result is going to need to run commands on the server and run random programs and whatnot
(7/29/2015 3:04:29 PM) Link: so, security concerns
(7/29/2015 3:04:50 PM) Adelene: cool.
(7/29/2015 3:06:17 PM) PDV: Heroku is the usual go-to site-prototype hosting service. You set up a couple config files and push a project to it with git, and it goes up immediately. But if you're going to need a bunch of programs side by side it might not be suitable anyway.
(7/29/2015 3:07:03 PM) Link: huh
(7/29/2015 3:07:05 PM) Link: good to know
(7/29/2015 3:07:05 PM) Link: thanks
(7/29/2015 3:10:24 PM) PDV: np
(7/29/2015 3:11:05 PM) PDV: also, reread a bunch of chat log: how much got missed from MotherStarlight going down overnight?
(7/29/2015 3:11:26 PM) Kappa: Somebody was apparently asking last night about whether Nexus supports both demons and alethics
(7/29/2015 3:11:34 PM) Adelene: None, I posted it.
(7/29/2015 3:11:39 PM) Adelene: (@pdv)
(7/29/2015 3:11:42 PM) PDV: I had my client running continuously so I can probably resurrect whatever's needed
(7/29/2015 3:11:48 PM) PDV: oh, ok
(7/29/2015 3:11:50 PM) PDV: good
(7/29/2015 3:11:56 PM) Adelene: Thanks for offering though :)
(7/29/2015 3:12:00 PM) Kappa: So far I've been playing Nexus as generally accomodating to foreign magic systems, and it permitted ME to scribble on it
(7/29/2015 3:12:38 PM) Kappa: but if somebody came in and started wiping out planets to fuel a spell, Nexus might decline to provide spellpower
(7/29/2015 3:13:08 PM) Kappa: Like, I think it has... I'd almost call it a sense of self-preservation?
(7/29/2015 3:13:44 PM) Adelene: Seems reasonable ^^
(7/29/2015 3:13:48 PM) Kappa: It's pretty flexible on what it'll let people do to its physics, but *very very large* effects are judged more harshly than smaller ones
(7/29/2015 3:14:42 PM) Andygal: heeee
(7/29/2015 3:16:02 PM) Kappa: and I think that, broadly, "wrecking stuff" is harder than "building stuff"
(7/29/2015 3:16:20 PM) Link: why is this so catchy
www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-1_Vl81k-E(7/29/2015 3:16:22 PM) Link: also adorable
(7/29/2015 3:16:26 PM) Adelene: So Kappa
(7/29/2015 3:16:32 PM) Adelene: What is Miles up to these days?
(7/29/2015 3:17:05 PM) Kappa: Having a slump, I think. But like, as Miles-slumps go it's fairly low-key and unworrying, he's just actually taking it easy for once and not talking much
(7/29/2015 3:17:17 PM) Adelene: Ok
(7/29/2015 3:17:37 PM) Adelene: Lurker will be keeping an eye on that but not especially closely.
(7/29/2015 3:17:47 PM) Kappa: playing a slightly bipolar character is so convenient, I can give him brain troubles every time I have them XD
(7/29/2015 3:17:52 PM) Adelene: heh :)
(7/29/2015 3:17:56 PM) Teceler: pfft
(7/29/2015 3:18:03 PM) Teceler: that would be useful
(7/29/2015 3:20:05 PM) Adelene: I did the math, and it takes Lurker about a week to dig out each story of the place she's building, assuming she's there 8 hours a day and not taking weekends.
(7/29/2015 3:20:37 PM) Adelene: (I'm also assuming that Evenstar actually meant 3' cube rather than 5', given that's what minecraft blocks are.)
(7/29/2015 3:22:05 PM) Adelene: (If it is actually 5' then it takes her more like 2-3 days.)
(7/29/2015 3:22:48 PM) PDV: is OTC selling Minecraft tools now?
(7/29/2015 3:22:55 PM) Teceler: just the pick
(7/29/2015 3:22:58 PM) Teceler: and that's been for a while
(7/29/2015 3:23:01 PM) Adelene: That one pickaxe in the first set, yeah.
(7/29/2015 3:25:55 PM) Link left the room (quit: Client exited).
(7/29/2015 3:44:34 PM) PDV left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 181 seconds).
(7/29/2015 3:47:45 PM) Teceler is now known as Teceler|Away
(7/29/2015 4:09:28 PM) Sonata entered the room.
(7/29/2015 4:09:28 PM) mode (+o Sonata) by ChanServ
(7/29/2015 5:07:01 PM) tecephone entered the room.
(7/29/2015 5:10:52 PM) FacelessSicker entered the room.
(7/29/2015 5:11:05 PM) FacelessSicker: o/
(7/29/2015 5:11:54 PM) Adelene: o/
(7/29/2015 5:11:55 PM) tecephone left the room (quit: Connection reset by peer).
(7/29/2015 5:11:59 PM) tecephone entered the room.
(7/29/2015 5:17:17 PM) tecephone2 entered the room.
(7/29/2015 5:17:17 PM) tecephone left the room (quit: Connection reset by peer).
(7/29/2015 5:18:27 PM) Teceler|Away is now known as Teceler
(7/29/2015 5:18:54 PM) tecephone2 left the room (quit: Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client (
www.androirc.com )).
(7/29/2015 5:21:03 PM) Adelene: Tec \o/
(7/29/2015 5:21:11 PM) Teceler: hey
(7/29/2015 5:21:32 PM) Adelene: ^^
(7/29/2015 5:22:12 PM) FacelessSicker: Salutations
(7/29/2015 5:22:18 PM) FacelessSicker: I am still sick, how are you people?
(7/29/2015 5:22:42 PM) Teceler: in pain and dizzy, but it should get better after I've rested for a while
(7/29/2015 5:23:27 PM) Adelene: *distributes hugs*
(7/29/2015 5:23:33 PM) Teceler: thanks
(7/29/2015 5:29:50 PM) ***Kappa fetches the poof basket
(7/29/2015 5:56:04 PM) ***FacelessSicker acepts poof and hugs
(7/29/2015 5:56:08 PM) FacelessSicker: sorry
(7/29/2015 5:56:13 PM) FacelessSicker: I was watching a LP
(7/29/2015 5:56:17 PM) FacelessSicker: hey, kappa
(7/29/2015 5:56:27 PM) FacelessSicker: that goddess of preservation is a new template?
(7/29/2015 5:57:34 PM) Kappa: what?
(7/29/2015 5:57:47 PM) Teceler: in cuddling gods
(7/29/2015 5:58:26 PM) Kappa: she's an yvette
(7/29/2015 5:58:38 PM) Teceler: ...huh
(7/29/2015 5:58:42 PM) FacelessSicker: wait really?
(7/29/2015 5:58:49 PM) FacelessSicker: she sounds so.... composed?
(7/29/2015 5:58:54 PM) FacelessSicker: Ivete tends to be
(7/29/2015 5:59:07 PM) FacelessSicker: dunno insecure, I guess?
(7/29/2015 6:02:16 PM) Adelene: pfffff
(7/29/2015 6:02:30 PM) Adelene: > Symptoms of [being a high-end mage] include: memories of several millenia of study, finding yourself living in a castle that responds to your thoughts, spontaneous enaction of dreams, various government officials banging on your door at all hours, and apocalypsi.
(7/29/2015 6:02:47 PM) Teceler: XD
(7/29/2015 6:02:56 PM) Teceler: what is that from?
(7/29/2015 6:03:02 PM) Sky: yeah, that was great xD
(7/29/2015 6:03:05 PM) Kappa: <3
(7/29/2015 6:03:06 PM) Adelene:
manyworlds.boards.net/post/4854/thread(7/29/2015 6:03:43 PM) Teceler: ...apparently I need to catch up on the forum. So noted. XD
(7/29/2015 6:03:55 PM) Adelene: ^^
(7/29/2015 6:06:46 PM) Adelene: ...okay, so, like. Now I need to actually hammer out Lurker's views on sexuality in general, to determine whether she is Distressed About Miku.
(7/29/2015 6:07:35 PM) Kappa: distressed why?
(7/29/2015 6:08:38 PM) Adelene: Because making people to be sebots is possibly distressing.
(7/29/2015 6:08:51 PM) Adelene: But maybe not! I haven't worked out her general thought process there.
(7/29/2015 6:09:49 PM) Adelene: (Also, she may or may not be parsing Miku *as* a sexbot, just, that second video was enough in that area that she noped out of watching it partway through.)
(7/29/2015 6:09:56 PM) Kappa: aha
(7/29/2015 6:11:23 PM) ***Teceler pokes at what Eclipse privacy-related rights look like.
(7/29/2015 6:21:41 PM) Adelene: *sighs, looks for resources on monotreme biology*
(7/29/2015 6:21:54 PM) Kappa: <3333333333
(7/29/2015 6:24:59 PM) PDV entered the room.
(7/29/2015 6:34:39 PM) FacelessSicker left the room (quit: Quit:
www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client).
(7/29/2015 6:47:46 PM) Sonata: I did not get sexbot out of the second video, but maybe I wasn't paying attention
(7/29/2015 6:49:07 PM) Adelene: It isn't there exactly, but Lurker parsed it as being About Sex, and I need to work out what that implies particularly in the context of Miku having been designed to do that kind of thing.
(7/29/2015 7:02:22 PM) Kelaway is now known as Kel
(7/29/2015 7:03:54 PM) Teceler: Kel!
(7/29/2015 7:04:03 PM) Kel: Hi!
(7/29/2015 7:04:29 PM) PDV: o/
(7/29/2015 7:05:43 PM) Adelene: :D
(7/29/2015 7:05:43 PM) Andygal: Hi
(7/29/2015 7:05:57 PM) Kel: Hi! =)
(7/29/2015 7:11:26 PM) Adelene: (My conclusion re: Miku is that Lurker is concerned but not distressed; Tyche will be getting a PM.)
(7/29/2015 7:11:40 PM) Sonata: <3
(7/29/2015 7:11:54 PM) Teceler: ...Tyche may be distressed, I'm not sure, I don't have all of the pieces yet
(7/29/2015 7:12:14 PM) Adelene: *nod*
(7/29/2015 7:12:37 PM) ***Teceler need to finish catching up
(7/29/2015 7:13:50 PM) Adelene: With the current pieces, Lurker sends a PM to the tune of 'I'm not sure if Miku is okay, and I don't know how to tell - she might be, but humans are really bad at mental health and I'm concerned. Can you check?'; Tyche may or may not catch that Lurker doesn't usually use gendered pronouns but is using one there.
(7/29/2015 7:14:34 PM) Teceler: is Miku marked as using female pronouns?
(7/29/2015 7:14:58 PM) Adelene: Lurker doesn't use them regardless of peoples' gender marker.
(7/29/2015 7:15:04 PM) Teceler: I know
(7/29/2015 7:15:07 PM) Evenstar entered the room.
(7/29/2015 7:15:11 PM) Evenstar: Hi!
(7/29/2015 7:15:17 PM) Teceler: but Tyche is less likely to notice if Miku is marked that way
(7/29/2015 7:15:19 PM) Teceler: hello
(7/29/2015 7:15:32 PM) Kel: Hi!
(7/29/2015 7:15:36 PM) Kel: TKR are /evil/!
(7/29/2015 7:15:40 PM) Adelene: hee
(7/29/2015 7:15:47 PM) Sonata: ~eeeeeeeeevil~
(7/29/2015 7:15:49 PM) Teceler: XD
(7/29/2015 7:16:07 PM) Evenstar: TKR are eeeeevil <3
(7/29/2015 7:16:10 PM) Evenstar: :3
(7/29/2015 7:16:12 PM) Kel: <3
(7/29/2015 7:16:18 PM) Kel: Oh question!
(7/29/2015 7:16:27 PM) Kel: Does Spool of Endless Rope break?
(7/29/2015 7:16:31 PM) Adelene: Evenstar! Minecraft blocks are 3' to a side, not 5', the latter is like 5x more stone than the former, is the latter correct?
(7/29/2015 7:16:41 PM) Kel: Or can it be used to go explore other planets
(7/29/2015 7:16:53 PM) Teceler: ...
(7/29/2015 7:17:00 PM) Evenstar: Adelene: The latter is correct!
(7/29/2015 7:17:01 PM) Teceler: spool of endless rope as a space elevator?
(7/29/2015 7:17:04 PM) Kel: Well
(7/29/2015 7:17:15 PM) Evenstar: It's not /actually/ a minecraft pickaxe for all that everyone assumed it was!
(7/29/2015 7:17:20 PM) Evenstar: :P
(7/29/2015 7:17:21 PM) Teceler: XD
(7/29/2015 7:17:22 PM) Kel: more like the Endless Spool of Rope is tied to a really strong tree
(7/29/2015 7:17:22 PM) Adelene: ah, cool.
(7/29/2015 7:17:30 PM) Kel: and someone going down until they hit another planet?
(7/29/2015 7:17:41 PM) Teceler: ah, this is Garden
(7/29/2015 7:17:47 PM) Kel: yeah
(7/29/2015 7:17:52 PM) Evenstar: (Oh, by the way, if you swing the pickaxe at someone else it will /really hurt/)
(7/29/2015 7:18:20 PM) Andygal: heeeee
(7/29/2015 7:19:11 PM) Kel: will it destroy a 5x5x5 block of them/
(7/29/2015 7:19:13 PM) Kel: *?
(7/29/2015 7:19:26 PM) Teceler: --oh, Evenstar, I thought of a question about takkarash-warding, actually. If someone who is takkarash-warded has a 50/50 chance of being killed quickly or being in a lot of pain for a while, does the warding affect those odds? (Which is to say, does it try to get you killed so that you're not in pain any more. Because, um, that would be bad)
(7/29/2015 7:19:56 PM) Andygal: ....
(7/29/2015 7:20:01 PM) Andygal: yes, that would be bad.
(7/29/2015 7:20:07 PM) Teceler: yes
(7/29/2015 7:20:31 PM) Teceler: I am hoping it does not do that thing, but I wanted to, um, check
(7/29/2015 7:20:42 PM) Evenstar: Kel: Nope, but it will hurt about as much as being shot with a rifle.
(7/29/2015 7:20:48 PM) Kel: ah
(7/29/2015 7:21:02 PM) Evenstar: But with extra bleeding.
(7/29/2015 7:21:07 PM) Teceler: ...ouch
(7/29/2015 7:21:15 PM) Andygal: Ow.
(7/29/2015 7:21:40 PM) Adelene: ouch indeed.
(7/29/2015 7:21:57 PM) Evenstar: (In system terms, the Earthsmasher Pickaxe has the weapon properties of [Brutal], [Magnum], and [Traumatizing]
(7/29/2015 7:22:01 PM) Evenstar: )
(7/29/2015 7:22:09 PM) Teceler: ...oww.
(7/29/2015 7:22:11 PM) Kappa: what IS this system?
(7/29/2015 7:22:22 PM) Andygal: Legend RPG I think. It's D20.
(7/29/2015 7:22:41 PM) Andygal: a couple of the other things OTC sells are from there.
(7/29/2015 7:22:50 PM) Evenstar: (Brutal means it deals extra damage, Magnum means it ignores 5 points of damage reduction, Traumatizing means it inflicts bleeding on a crit.)
(7/29/2015 7:23:05 PM) Evenstar: And yep, Legend RPG.
(7/29/2015 7:24:13 PM) Evenstar: (By contrast, a rifle has the properties of being [Brutal][Distant] and [Traumatizing])
(7/29/2015 7:25:56 PM) Adelene: Nifty, kind of? Lurker is highly unlikely to actually discover this. ^^
(7/29/2015 7:26:10 PM) Kappa: hahahaha
(7/29/2015 7:26:20 PM) Kappa: It seems like the kind of thing you'd want to include as a safety warning!
(7/29/2015 7:26:35 PM) Kappa: It's not inconceivable that somebody might accidentally get hit with that pickaxe!
(7/29/2015 7:26:59 PM) Adelene: 'pointy end doesn't go toward anything you don't want the pointy end of a pickaxe in' is pretty straightforward I'd think. ^^
(7/29/2015 7:27:15 PM) Kel: Evenstar, any thoughts about the spool of rope?
(7/29/2015 7:27:41 PM) Teceler: also the takkarash-warding question
(7/29/2015 7:27:43 PM) Kappa: I mean, yes, it is, but like - if this pickaxe is *especially damaging to people* as pickaxes go, that's useful information to have
(7/29/2015 7:28:00 PM) Kappa: and conversely if it *doesn't* remove a 5' cube of the person you accidentally hit with it, that's *also* useful information to have
(7/29/2015 7:28:01 PM) Kappa: XD
(7/29/2015 7:28:09 PM) Adelene: heh ^^
(7/29/2015 7:28:13 PM) Sonata: Evenstar, SoER space elevator y/n?
(7/29/2015 7:28:26 PM) Teceler: XD
(7/29/2015 7:28:40 PM) Kel: Specifically in Garden, but also curious about other worlds
(7/29/2015 7:30:04 PM) Evenstar: Sonata: It is /literally infinite/
(7/29/2015 7:30:17 PM) Sonata: yes but also tensile strength
(7/29/2015 7:30:20 PM) Sonata: is an issue
(7/29/2015 7:30:21 PM) Kel: OKay, but how strong
(7/29/2015 7:30:34 PM) Evenstar: Well, it's as strong as regular silk rope. So fairly strong.
(7/29/2015 7:30:38 PM) Kel: There will be an IC question of that soon
(7/29/2015 7:30:44 PM) Sonata: is it also as heavy as regular silk rope?
(7/29/2015 7:30:59 PM) Evenstar: Sonata: Yes, once you pull it from the spool.
(7/29/2015 7:31:00 PM) Teceler: ...what happens if it /does/ break?
(7/29/2015 7:31:17 PM) Evenstar: Teceler: All the rope no longer attached to the spool goes away.
(7/29/2015 7:31:21 PM) Evenstar: Instantly.
(7/29/2015 7:31:24 PM) Kel: ...
(7/29/2015 7:31:25 PM) Kel: that is bad
(7/29/2015 7:31:28 PM) Evenstar: Yep.
(7/29/2015 7:31:37 PM) Kel: so presumably whoever was on the other end dies
(7/29/2015 7:31:38 PM) Sonata: Although it does provide FTL signaling.
(7/29/2015 7:31:57 PM) Andygal: ....pfffhahahaha
(7/29/2015 7:32:00 PM) Teceler: Kel: I am assuming that will not get tested once that is icly stated
(7/29/2015 7:32:10 PM) Teceler: also, Sonata, the forum alreadydoes that :P
(7/29/2015 7:32:11 PM) Evenstar: Kel: Yeah, but they would die if it was a non-conjured rope too probably. :P
(7/29/2015 7:32:15 PM) Kel: brb
(7/29/2015 7:32:24 PM) Sonata: true, Tec
(7/29/2015 7:32:30 PM) Evenstar: PLEASE let's not do the time-travel plot.
(7/29/2015 7:32:41 PM) Sonata: agreed
(7/29/2015 7:32:46 PM) Evenstar: (Or I will have to fetch up the guy with the kayak)
(7/29/2015 7:32:51 PM) Teceler: ...Sonata does MS have some kind of -- XD
(7/29/2015 7:33:05 PM) Teceler: some kind of way to deal with that?
(7/29/2015 7:33:15 PM) Sonata: ...kayak?
(7/29/2015 7:33:55 PM) Sonata: Teceler, uh maybe?
(7/29/2015 7:34:25 PM) Sonata: Ask me again if a character tries to make time travel happen and we need an excuse to stop them.
(7/29/2015 7:34:28 PM) Teceler: XD
(7/29/2015 7:34:30 PM) Teceler: okay
(7/29/2015 7:34:41 PM) Teceler: (stupid relativity :P)
(7/29/2015 7:35:28 PM) Teceler: Evenstar: Takkarash-warding question? (I'm concerned it got lost in there)
(7/29/2015 7:36:08 PM) Evenstar: There's a time police. One of them is a Native American guy and his time-traveling kayak. You do not pick a fight with him.
(7/29/2015 7:36:28 PM) Evenstar: Teceler: Which one?
(7/29/2015 7:36:37 PM) Teceler: <Teceler> --oh, Evenstar, I thought of a question about takkarash-warding, actually. If someone who is takkarash-warded has a 50/50 chance of being killed quickly or being in a lot of pain for a while, does the warding affect those odds? (Which is to say, does it try to get you killed so that you're not in pain any more. Because, um, that would be bad)
(7/29/2015 7:37:57 PM) Evenstar: Teceler: ... It /might possibly do that/, as long as the causality was easily manipulable. But you'd have a case to sue the OTC if it happened.
(7/29/2015 7:38:07 PM) Teceler: ...um
(7/29/2015 7:38:23 PM) Evenstar: (Yes, yes, after you were revived)
(7/29/2015 7:38:39 PM) Teceler: (...does that require the OTC to revive you if that happens? XD)
(7/29/2015 7:38:53 PM) Teceler: (or do you have to get revived on your own somehow to do that?)
(7/29/2015 7:39:09 PM) Evenstar: (The OTC would probably avoid the question until someone asked and then do it to avoid the PR distaster)
(7/29/2015 7:39:16 PM) Evenstar: *disaster
(7/29/2015 7:39:24 PM) Teceler: (pfft)
(7/29/2015 7:39:40 PM) Evenstar: (/that/ is a thing that /could/ crash the Takkarash market.)
(7/29/2015 7:39:47 PM) Teceler: (meep)
(7/29/2015 7:39:52 PM) Kappa: How does one even sue the OTC? What, if any, jurisdictions are legitimate for the purpose?
(7/29/2015 7:40:06 PM) Kappa: Also now my characters are plotting to have this happen to them, just so's you know.
(7/29/2015 7:40:10 PM) Teceler: pfft
(7/29/2015 7:40:43 PM) Kappa: As a collective. They're like, "One of us should take this fall." I'm like, "You realize it'll kill your most easily produced currency...?" They're like "YES BUT IT'S WAITING TO HAPPEN TO *SOMEBODY*"
(7/29/2015 7:40:45 PM) Teceler: how /likely/ a thing is this to happen, outside of deliberately-constructed theoretical scenarios?
(7/29/2015 7:40:52 PM) Teceler: or rather, has it happened before?
(7/29/2015 7:41:00 PM) Evenstar: Kappabeta: The OTC's had to come up with multiversal laws more or less on its own. It basically exists in the jurisdiction of anyone who you can convince to bring a multiversal corporation to court.
(7/29/2015 7:41:02 PM) Kappa: Miles: THE MULTIVERSE IS A VERY BIG PLACE
(7/29/2015 7:41:03 PM) Kappa: XD
(7/29/2015 7:41:07 PM) Kappa: hahahahaha
(7/29/2015 7:41:10 PM) Teceler: XD
(7/29/2015 7:41:15 PM) Kappa: ...
(7/29/2015 7:41:24 PM) Evenstar: Because: Literally unprecedented in 99% of jurisdictions :P
(7/29/2015 7:41:24 PM) Kel: bk
(7/29/2015 7:41:28 PM) Teceler: wb
(7/29/2015 7:41:32 PM) Kappa: Barrayar tho
(7/29/2015 7:41:33 PM) Kappa: oh my god.
(7/29/2015 7:41:36 PM) Teceler: pffffft
(7/29/2015 7:41:38 PM) Kel: thanks
(7/29/2015 7:41:39 PM) Kel: <Evenstar> Kel: Yeah, but they would die if it was a non-conjured rope too probably. :P
(7/29/2015 7:41:51 PM) Kel: yeah
(7/29/2015 7:41:56 PM) Kel: I will just have her ask IC
(7/29/2015 7:42:19 PM) Kel: she really wanted to avoid buying endless pit
(7/29/2015 7:42:26 PM) Teceler: why?
(7/29/2015 7:42:33 PM) Kel: because it's more expensive
(7/29/2015 7:42:35 PM) Teceler: ah
(7/29/2015 7:42:39 PM) Evenstar: Kel: Safewing charms are a decent alternative!
(7/29/2015 7:42:41 PM) Teceler: that makes sense
(7/29/2015 7:42:43 PM) Kel: ooh
(7/29/2015 7:42:59 PM) Kappa: I'm still just over here marveling at the vision of somebody taking the OTC to court on Barrayar.
(7/29/2015 7:43:03 PM) Teceler: Evenstar: has this problem happened to the OTC before?
(7/29/2015 7:43:05 PM) Kel: XD
(7/29/2015 7:43:06 PM) Kappa: I feel like the OTC really doesn't want to be taken to court on Barrayar.
(7/29/2015 7:43:09 PM) Teceler: ...also, pfft XD
(7/29/2015 7:43:12 PM) Evenstar: (I just laughed out loud literally)
(7/29/2015 7:43:15 PM) Kel: <3
(7/29/2015 7:43:18 PM) Kappa: <3
(7/29/2015 7:43:22 PM) Andygal: the rope is not intended for space exploration.
(7/29/2015 7:43:28 PM) Evenstar: Why, what's Barrayaran justice like?
(7/29/2015 7:43:29 PM) Teceler: (er, where 'this problem' = the takkarash-warding problem)
(7/29/2015 7:43:33 PM) Kappa: XDDDDDDDDDDDD
(7/29/2015 7:43:34 PM) Kel: well not /space/ exactly
(7/29/2015 7:43:39 PM) Kel: but like. lots of air?
(7/29/2015 7:43:52 PM) Kappa: Barrayaran justice is, uh. it's very itself.
(7/29/2015 7:43:57 PM) Evenstar: Teceler: I would say 'not yet but it's just waiting to happen'
(7/29/2015 7:44:11 PM) Teceler: oh dear XD
(7/29/2015 7:44:16 PM) Evenstar: The issue is it's also /hard to detect/
(7/29/2015 7:44:22 PM) Evenstar: because Takkarash try to be subtle
(7/29/2015 7:44:26 PM) ***Teceler tries to to work out if this problem would occur to my characters
(7/29/2015 7:44:27 PM) Andygal: the rope is intended to deal with sadistic universes/DMs that will give you an 11 foot wide pit when you have a 10 foot long rope
(7/29/2015 7:44:27 PM) Teceler: mm, point
(7/29/2015 7:44:32 PM) Kel: ooh safewing is actually /cheaper/ than ESoR
(7/29/2015 7:44:33 PM) Kappa: They wouldn't take it before the Council of Counts because it's not a Vor
(7/29/2015 7:44:36 PM) Evenstar: So it might have actually happened before but nobody noticed.
(7/29/2015 7:44:41 PM) Evenstar: Kel: Yes, because it's one-use.
(7/29/2015 7:44:45 PM) Kel: ah
(7/29/2015 7:44:46 PM) Kel: ...
(7/29/2015 7:44:51 PM) Kel: that is enough to get to a new planet!
(7/29/2015 7:44:52 PM) Teceler: kappabeta: even if the other party was Vor?
(7/29/2015 7:44:57 PM) Kel: although not enough to get back
(7/29/2015 7:45:02 PM) Evenstar: So buy two!
(7/29/2015 7:45:03 PM) Evenstar: :P
(7/29/2015 7:45:05 PM) Kel: XD
(7/29/2015 7:45:19 PM) Kel: I don't think there /is/ a way to get back?
(7/29/2015 7:45:26 PM) Kel: without extra magic
(7/29/2015 7:46:04 PM) Evenstar: Andygal: It's also because of the dungeon builder's arms race
(7/29/2015 7:46:07 PM) Kappa: I'm not totally sure of all this, tec, but I *think* if you piss off a Vor and they set the law on you it's a matter for whichever count's jurisdiction you were in when you made this grave error.
(7/29/2015 7:46:17 PM) Evenstar: You build a 10-ft radius trap, people use 10-ft poles.
(7/29/2015 7:46:17 PM) ***Adelene quietly notes the flying kobold.
(7/29/2015 7:46:26 PM) Evenstar: So you build an 11-ft radius trap
(7/29/2015 7:46:27 PM) Kappa: whereas if you *are* a Vor and you do something vewy vewy bad it's a matter for the Council of Counts
(7/29/2015 7:46:28 PM) Teceler: kappabeta: pfft. Point.
(7/29/2015 7:46:32 PM) Evenstar: and everybody moves to 12-ft poles
(7/29/2015 7:46:43 PM) Kappa: and yes, I use the phrase "grave error" advisedly.
(7/29/2015 7:46:45 PM) Evenstar: etc etc until poles are too long or spell effects are too big.
(7/29/2015 7:46:48 PM) Kappa: what was the quote
(7/29/2015 7:47:04 PM) Kappa: "What do you call a group of angry men with sticks in a dark alley? A Vor lord's malpractice suit."
(7/29/2015 7:47:17 PM) Evenstar: Pfffthahah.
(7/29/2015 7:47:29 PM) Evenstar: It miiiight be a little hard to apply that to the OTC :P
(7/29/2015 7:47:33 PM) Teceler: Evenstar: hm. Does takkarash-warding pick up on things like 'person will be tortured if captured' and steer away from that if they can do it subtly?
(7/29/2015 7:47:35 PM) Kel: XD
(7/29/2015 7:47:37 PM) Teceler: XD
(7/29/2015 7:47:42 PM) Teceler: I do recall that!
(7/29/2015 7:47:42 PM) Kappa: I mean, if this happens, the person taking the OTC to court will almost certainly be Miles and the presiding Count will almost certainly be Aral
(7/29/2015 7:47:48 PM) Kappa: and these are both very fair-minded people
(7/29/2015 7:47:50 PM) Teceler: pfft
(7/29/2015 7:47:59 PM) Kel: why would they be doing that?
(7/29/2015 7:48:01 PM) Evenstar: Teceler: Likely!
(7/29/2015 7:48:05 PM) Kel: why is that a thing they want to happen?
(7/29/2015 7:48:06 PM) Teceler: that or Gregor winds up having to deal with it personally
(7/29/2015 7:48:09 PM) PDV: though if you needed sticks for beating up the OTC, ME could probably provide some
(7/29/2015 7:48:11 PM) Kappa: so they will come after the OTC with what they consider a fair repercussion for LETTING TAKKARASH GO OUT WITH THIS PROBLEM EXISTING
(7/29/2015 7:48:17 PM) Teceler: pfffft
(7/29/2015 7:48:18 PM) Kappa: oh god you don't want gregor to have to deal with this personally
(7/29/2015 7:48:31 PM) Kel: XD
(7/29/2015 7:48:32 PM) Kappa: XD
(7/29/2015 7:48:44 PM) Kel: ... does /Gregor/ want to deal with this?
(7/29/2015 7:48:53 PM) Kappa: what do you mean, does he want to deal with this?
(7/29/2015 7:48:55 PM) Kappa: in what sense?
(7/29/2015 7:49:00 PM) Kel: like.
(7/29/2015 7:49:01 PM) Teceler: I was just pointing out that that was a thing that could possibly happen! XD
(7/29/2015 7:49:08 PM) Andygal: I think Gregor probably does not wish to deal with this.
(7/29/2015 7:49:13 PM) Kel: is it a thing he wants to deal with himself personally?
(7/29/2015 7:49:14 PM) Teceler: poor Gregor
(7/29/2015 7:49:15 PM) Kel: aw
(7/29/2015 7:49:20 PM) PDV: I'm getting a vibe of 'probably makes him as angry as the conclusion of Memory'
(7/29/2015 7:49:30 PM) Kel: how is Gregor doing with all these Interdimensional Shenanigans living in his universe btw?
(7/29/2015 7:49:37 PM) Kel: huh
(7/29/2015 7:49:38 PM) Teceler: well, it depends on how bad the consequences get
(7/29/2015 7:49:38 PM) Teceler: but
(7/29/2015 7:49:39 PM) Kappa: Gregor's doing just fine
(7/29/2015 7:50:03 PM) Kappa: Not *quite* that angry because this does not represent a personal betrayal of Gregor by someone he trusted.
(7/29/2015 7:50:10 PM) Kappa: But like.
(7/29/2015 7:50:18 PM) ***PDV nods
(7/29/2015 7:50:25 PM) Kappa: If Takkarash fuck up and get somebody killed, and this case makes its way to Gregor
(7/29/2015 7:50:30 PM) Kel: I am confused about how this would even come up outside of people trying to renact weird thought experiments?
(7/29/2015 7:50:36 PM) Kappa: the OTC will be made to regret their choices
(7/29/2015 7:50:45 PM) Teceler: ahahahahaha
(7/29/2015 7:50:57 PM) Kappa: Kel: I mean, easy. Imagine if Miles redeemed some Takkarash before the Lairouban assassins mission.
(7/29/2015 7:51:09 PM) Kel: but like
(7/29/2015 7:51:18 PM) Kel: how would they find out about the /tiny/ probability manipulation?
(7/29/2015 7:51:34 PM) Kel: like, I get the vibe it is always things too small to notice?
(7/29/2015 7:51:35 PM) Kappa: In the case of the Lairouban assassins mission, Mark was there.
(7/29/2015 7:51:49 PM) Kel: mhm
(7/29/2015 7:52:03 PM) Kappa: Specifically arranging events so that Miles would be rescued in a way not directly traceable to outside influence.
(7/29/2015 7:52:12 PM) Kappa: He would be suspicious.
(7/29/2015 7:52:14 PM) Kappa: But like
(7/29/2015 7:52:17 PM) Evenstar: Kel: It's possible even the OTC doesn't realize they accidentally built their warding negligently
(7/29/2015 7:52:20 PM) Kappa: if I actually had this actually happen to somepurple
(7/29/2015 7:52:29 PM) Kappa: Esthfora would probably be the one to call shenanigans
(7/29/2015 7:52:34 PM) Teceler: pffft
(7/29/2015 7:52:34 PM) Kel: ok
(7/29/2015 7:52:47 PM) Kel: but like. I get the impression that it is a /ridiculously/ tiny probability shift?
(7/29/2015 7:52:51 PM) Teceler: yeah Esthfora is well positioned to do that
(7/29/2015 7:52:56 PM) Evenstar: Kel: It is!
(7/29/2015 7:53:14 PM) Evenstar: But it's butterfly-effect in some rare cases.
(7/29/2015 7:53:21 PM) Kel: like. I would expect that in order to find out the effect
(7/29/2015 7:53:25 PM) Kappa: The impression I was getting was that the probability shift isn't so much *tiny* as *stealthy*
(7/29/2015 7:53:30 PM) Kel: you would need to do a /bunch/ of repeat experiments?
(7/29/2015 7:53:31 PM) Kel: ah
(7/29/2015 7:53:32 PM) Adelene: I think a thing here is, like, you have to already be taking a 50/50 gamble with your life, for real?
(7/29/2015 7:53:35 PM) Evenstar: Kappabeta: Both probably!
(7/29/2015 7:53:41 PM) Evenstar: Adelene: Yes.
(7/29/2015 7:54:07 PM) Adelene: It can'y just /look/ like a 50/50 gamble, which I think is the thing Kappa is describing.
(7/29/2015 7:54:10 PM) Teceler: Kel: But, like, if it actually comes up, there are people positioned to notice
(7/29/2015 7:54:15 PM) Evenstar: If you jump off a building Takkarash will not save you.
(7/29/2015 7:54:17 PM) Sonata: Flip a coin. Heads, you get some pain; tails, you lose a dollar.
(7/29/2015 7:54:17 PM) Teceler: pfft
(7/29/2015 7:54:25 PM) Sonata: Repeat.
(7/29/2015 7:54:26 PM) Kel: XD
(7/29/2015 7:54:47 PM) Kel: heads, you get some pain, tails, you get rescued by Batman?
(7/29/2015 7:54:49 PM) Kappa: I'm not sure I know what you mean by "just look like a 50/50 gamble"
(7/29/2015 7:54:49 PM) Evenstar: Sonata: That would reveal the Takkarash-ward!
(7/29/2015 7:55:19 PM) Evenstar: Becasue you would mysteriously get tails until you started questioning wether the coin was rigged
(7/29/2015 7:55:28 PM) Evenstar: And then it would go back to random chance for a big
(7/29/2015 7:55:32 PM) Evenstar: *bit
(7/29/2015 7:55:40 PM) Evenstar: and then it would start being tails again!
(7/29/2015 7:55:54 PM) Evenstar: Trouble is, if you're paying /close attention/
(7/29/2015 7:56:07 PM) Kel: that could be useful if you are good at not paying attention
(7/29/2015 7:56:10 PM) Evenstar: the ward will probably anesthetize you instead.
(7/29/2015 7:56:15 PM) Kappa: hahaha
(7/29/2015 7:56:30 PM) Teceler: pfft
(7/29/2015 7:56:43 PM) Kappa: ...hmm. If the pain you're going to be in is going to aggressively resist anaesthetization, does this tempt the ward to get more heavy-handed with probability fuckery?
(7/29/2015 7:56:56 PM) Teceler: kappabeta: how would it do that thing?
(7/29/2015 7:57:06 PM) Kappa: I'm sure I can think of something,
(7/29/2015 7:57:07 PM) Evenstar: Kappabeta: Nope, it just means you burn away your ward /really fast/.
(7/29/2015 7:57:08 PM) Kappa: .
(7/29/2015 7:57:10 PM) Andygal: direct pain-center simulation?
(7/29/2015 7:57:20 PM) Kel: still anaesthetizable I think?
(7/29/2015 7:57:27 PM) Evenstar: Andygal: Probably less painful than a million-Takkarash piece.
(7/29/2015 7:57:46 PM) Kappa: I'm thinking on the level of like, "magic pain that refuses to be magically thwarted"
(7/29/2015 7:57:50 PM) Evenstar: Takkarash /really do not fuck around/
(7/29/2015 7:57:56 PM) Kel: hm
(7/29/2015 7:58:05 PM) Kel: I think that might be the unstoppable/unmoveable thing?
(7/29/2015 7:58:09 PM) Evenstar: Takkarash will anesthetize you from a /wishcoin pain ray/
(7/29/2015 7:58:26 PM) Kappa: wishcoin pain rays don't have the thing I'm imagining at all
(7/29/2015 7:58:35 PM) Evenstar: Okay point.
(7/29/2015 7:58:39 PM) Kel: daemon separation?
(7/29/2015 7:58:47 PM) Teceler: ...Evenstar, kappabeta, you should probably decide what happens if someone Esthfora-warded and takkarash-warded wants to not be anesthetized against a particular pain
(7/29/2015 7:58:48 PM) Andygal: unless you built them to have that kappabeta
(7/29/2015 7:58:48 PM) Kappa: anaesthetizing from a wishcoin pain ray is just a matter of having any reasonably well-constructed magical effect shielding you from pain
(7/29/2015 7:59:10 PM) Evenstar: Teceler: They feel the pain, Takkarash won't protect you from pain you want to feel.
(7/29/2015 7:59:15 PM) Teceler: ah!
(7/29/2015 7:59:17 PM) Teceler: that is useful
(7/29/2015 7:59:17 PM) Evenstar: They are nice(?) like that.
(7/29/2015 7:59:21 PM) Kel: XD
(7/29/2015 7:59:22 PM) Kel: <3
(7/29/2015 7:59:25 PM) Teceler: XD
(7/29/2015 7:59:32 PM) Andygal: XD
(7/29/2015 7:59:44 PM) Evenstar: (This is why Takkarash don't go around nuking people's emotional pain nilly-willy usually.)
(7/29/2015 8:00:00 PM) Teceler: (That is very nice of it!)
(7/29/2015 8:00:05 PM) Sonata: ...can they anesthetize the pain caused by a takkarash minting kit, and can you use this to convert between denominations?
(7/29/2015 8:00:16 PM) Kappa: Wishcoins are, in the grand scheme of magical showdowns, actually kind of wimpy. It wouldn't break my suspension of disbelief at all to have Takkarash wards nope even very aggressive wishcoin pain rays
(7/29/2015 8:00:25 PM) Evenstar: Sonata: Yes and yes! I am glad that you have spotted the cheat. :3
(7/29/2015 8:00:29 PM) Teceler: pfffft
(7/29/2015 8:00:39 PM) Kappa: I'm thinking something more like enchanting backlash.
(7/29/2015 8:00:43 PM) Evenstar: Ah, I see
(7/29/2015 8:01:04 PM) Kappa: I envision enchanting backlash as very *very* aggressive in its desire to be felt.
(7/29/2015 8:01:19 PM) Evenstar: Takkarash will anesthetize enchanting backlash, but enchanting backlash is /persistent/ and /will/ chew through a Takkarash-ward eventually.
(7/29/2015 8:01:30 PM) Kappa: Hmm, no, that's not quite how that thing.
(7/29/2015 8:01:30 PM) Evenstar: Essentially, it's an /ablative/ shield.
(7/29/2015 8:01:45 PM) Kappa: By "backlash" I mean "the thing that happens when you fuck up a spell"
(7/29/2015 8:01:58 PM) Kappa: what's the quote - "not only will it kill you, it will hurt the whole time you are dying"
(7/29/2015 8:02:06 PM) Evenstar: What I'm saying is that Takkarash will /delay/ backlash from hitting you.
(7/29/2015 8:02:18 PM) Kel: will it hurt you if you immediately stop existing?
(7/29/2015 8:03:28 PM) Kappa: if you immediately stop existing you are no longer its problem
(7/29/2015 8:03:41 PM) Teceler: ...Evenstar, when a coin is redeemed, does it leave anything behind?
(7/29/2015 8:04:11 PM) Teceler: (like. Other than it's effect. I mean more in the sense of the coin, do the remains of the coin stick around)
(7/29/2015 8:04:13 PM) Evenstar: Teceler: Not usually!
(7/29/2015 8:04:26 PM) Evenstar: Let's say you take 1 TK of 'pain that wants to hurt you' and you have a 1000 TK pain-ward.
(7/29/2015 8:04:38 PM) Evenstar: What happens is that /your 1000 TK pain ward is exhausted/
(7/29/2015 8:04:42 PM) Teceler: okay good, Eclipse appreciates it being nice that way
(7/29/2015 8:04:52 PM) Evenstar: But it happens 1TK at a time over a period of 1000 minutes.
(7/29/2015 8:05:01 PM) Kappa: 1000 minutes?
(7/29/2015 8:05:18 PM) Evenstar: One TK anesthetizes 1TK of pain for 1 minute.
(7/29/2015 8:05:20 PM) Evenstar: (roughly)
(7/29/2015 8:05:26 PM) Kappa: hm.
(7/29/2015 8:05:41 PM) Evenstar: (This is why having more pain within that timespan causes you to mint as one larger coin)
(7/29/2015 8:05:44 PM) Adelene: By the way - what information do the coins and/or the minting kits come with?
(7/29/2015 8:06:22 PM) Evenstar: Adelene: Basic operation instructions for the minting kits, coins will tell you how to redeem them when you hold them for the first time.
(7/29/2015 8:06:34 PM) Teceler: --on that subject, how exactly does that work Evenstar? Do you mint the largest denomination, or...?
(7/29/2015 8:06:48 PM) Kappa: I think this is shaping up to "if you screw up an enchanting spell while you have any active TK wards, the backlash blitzes your entire ward immediately and then hits you with the amount of pain it took for it to do that. Then you die."
(7/29/2015 8:07:05 PM) Kappa: if it's big enough to want to painfully kill you in the first place, I mean.
(7/29/2015 8:07:18 PM) Andygal: pffffffft
(7/29/2015 8:07:24 PM) Andygal: don't fuck up big spells
(7/29/2015 8:07:30 PM) Kappa: Don't fuck up big spells!
(7/29/2015 8:07:31 PM) Kappa: XD
(7/29/2015 8:08:07 PM) Evenstar: Kappabeta: Yeah, but you will have a minute or so to try and unfuck yourself before the backlash comes and eats you, because the backlash is furiously burning through your ward during that time?
(7/29/2015 8:08:24 PM) Evenstar: (That or Enchanting Backlash generates /rediculous/ amounts of pain)
(7/29/2015 8:08:58 PM) Kappa: Yes, by "blitzes your entire ward immediately" I mean "applies a quantity of pain sufficient to get rid of the ward as close to instantaneously as possible".
(7/29/2015 8:09:22 PM) Kappa: Assuming that's a thing. Like, is it strictly tied to the one-minute intervals?
(7/29/2015 8:09:29 PM) Teceler: yeah, but it should still hold for a minute by the defition of how takkarash works?
(7/29/2015 8:09:31 PM) Evenstar: Kappabeta: Nope, that is a thing.
(7/29/2015 8:09:34 PM) Teceler: ah
(7/29/2015 8:09:45 PM) Evenstar: It just implies that Enchanting Backlash can generate arbitrary amounts of pain.
(7/29/2015 8:09:50 PM) Teceler: pffft
(7/29/2015 8:09:50 PM) Kappa: Yes.
(7/29/2015 8:09:56 PM) Adelene: Like: *eyes ward* *estimates* *applies double that thing*
(7/29/2015 8:10:03 PM) Teceler: ...XD
(7/29/2015 8:10:08 PM) Kappa: Pretty much, Ade.
(7/29/2015 8:10:13 PM) Evenstar: OTC is going to want to have an enchanter now.
(7/29/2015 8:10:17 PM) Sky left the room (quit: Quit: Leaving).
(7/29/2015 8:10:19 PM) Evenstar: And then it is going to want an immortal.
(7/29/2015 8:10:37 PM) Andygal: pffffft
(7/29/2015 8:10:38 PM) Teceler: I mean, if you have a 1TKR ward it is not going to just hit you with 2TKR of pain :P
(7/29/2015 8:10:47 PM) Teceler: I assume
(7/29/2015 8:10:50 PM) Andygal: generate ridiculous amounts of takkarash Evenstar?
(7/29/2015 8:10:52 PM) Kappa: No, it's going to hit you with more than that XD
(7/29/2015 8:10:54 PM) Link entered the room.
(7/29/2015 8:10:59 PM) Teceler: hello link
(7/29/2015 8:11:02 PM) Kel: it will hit you with at least 3 TKR?
(7/29/2015 8:11:03 PM) Kel: Hi!
(7/29/2015 8:11:03 PM) Adelene: o/
(7/29/2015 8:11:05 PM) Andygal: Hi Link
(7/29/2015 8:11:05 PM) Link: hello
(7/29/2015 8:11:19 PM) Andygal: it will hit you with as much as it was gonna hit you with anyway.
(7/29/2015 8:11:27 PM) Kappa: Like, in Effulgence, the suffering caused by screwing up a big enchantment was enough for Kas to warn everybody not to do that.
(7/29/2015 8:11:29 PM) Evenstar: And then it is going to teach the immortal to enchant, and then tell the immortal to deliberately fuck something up (under the understanding that if the immortal dies anyway it'll revive them, and if that's not possible provide for their loved ones for a long time(
(7/29/2015 8:11:41 PM) Kappa: pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
(7/29/2015 8:11:46 PM) Kel: XD
(7/29/2015 8:11:49 PM) Teceler: ...why?
(7/29/2015 8:11:53 PM) Kel: heee
(7/29/2015 8:12:01 PM) Evenstar: Because /arbitrary amounts of Takkarash/
(7/29/2015 8:12:02 PM) Teceler: what is the OTC's goal here? XD
(7/29/2015 8:12:05 PM) Teceler: ahahahaahaha
(7/29/2015 8:12:09 PM) Evenstar: Minting kits only go up so high!
(7/29/2015 8:12:12 PM) Andygal: Arbitrary amounts of takkarash!!!
(7/29/2015 8:12:13 PM) Teceler: link, what we have learned today: takkarash warding can kill you! :P
(7/29/2015 8:12:14 PM) Teceler: XD
(7/29/2015 8:12:14 PM) Kappa: Backlash doesn't *kill* aggressively but it does *hurt* *very* aggressively. And I think it shreds your mind if it can't kill you. But if it can't do either it just hurts a lot.
(7/29/2015 8:12:16 PM) Kel: ah
(7/29/2015 8:12:17 PM) Link: pfff
(7/29/2015 8:12:50 PM) Evenstar: Like, OTC could theoretically /end pain forever/
(7/29/2015 8:12:52 PM) Kappa: Fucking up high-potency Reverie enchantments: not even once, kids.
(7/29/2015 8:12:54 PM) Link: how does TKR warding kill you?
(7/29/2015 8:13:07 PM) Evenstar: That is how broken arbitrary amounts of minting is.
(7/29/2015 8:13:14 PM) Kappa: TKR warding kills you if its probability manipulation can only save you pain by getting you dead!
(7/29/2015 8:13:21 PM) Andygal: does OTC actually want to end pain forever?
(7/29/2015 8:13:21 PM) Link: hahahah
(7/29/2015 8:13:23 PM) Teceler: and it can do that subtly!
(7/29/2015 8:13:29 PM) Andygal: or do they just want a ton of money?
(7/29/2015 8:13:40 PM) Evenstar: OTC believes that having that amount of TKR is an enormous enormous lever
(7/29/2015 8:13:46 PM) Evenstar: and it wants to be the one standing on it
(7/29/2015 8:13:50 PM) Teceler: pfffffft XD
(7/29/2015 8:13:50 PM) Evenstar: :P
(7/29/2015 8:14:04 PM) Evenstar: (because perfectly natural paranoia)
(7/29/2015 8:14:14 PM) Evenstar: (also greed)
(7/29/2015 8:14:20 PM) Evenstar: (Also mild amounts of compassion)
(7/29/2015 8:14:25 PM) Kel: XD
(7/29/2015 8:14:26 PM) Teceler: (pfft XD)
(7/29/2015 8:14:29 PM) Kel: <3
(7/29/2015 8:14:33 PM) Andygal: well there are probably worse people to be standing on that lever.
(7/29/2015 8:14:51 PM) Evenstar: Yep.
(7/29/2015 8:14:52 PM) Kappa: ...I mean
(7/29/2015 8:14:54 PM) Kappa: Evenstar
(7/29/2015 8:15:04 PM) Kappa: the OTC already has access to a source of arbitrary quantities of TKR.
(7/29/2015 8:15:12 PM) Teceler: ?
(7/29/2015 8:15:15 PM) Kappa: All they have to do is design new coins.
(7/29/2015 8:15:18 PM) Teceler: pfft
(7/29/2015 8:15:20 PM) Kappa: In arbitrarily large denominations.
(7/29/2015 8:15:28 PM) Teceler: I'm guessing it's not that simple?
(7/29/2015 8:15:41 PM) Evenstar: No, I'm saying that /the magic of the minting kits fails to generate more pain at a certain limit/
(7/29/2015 8:15:52 PM) Evenstar: Otherwise they would /have/ bigger coins.
(7/29/2015 8:15:59 PM) Kappa: I mean
(7/29/2015 8:16:12 PM) Kappa: it can still *mint* from larger amounts, right?
(7/29/2015 8:16:34 PM) Evenstar: Yes-ish.
(7/29/2015 8:16:38 PM) Kappa: "ish"? XD
(7/29/2015 8:16:47 PM) Kappa: if it's just "ish", that poor immortal... XD
(7/29/2015 8:17:09 PM) Evenstar: There would be redesigns involved to channel that much pain.
(7/29/2015 8:17:18 PM) Kappa: hahahahaha
(7/29/2015 8:17:29 PM) Evenstar: But OTC is willing to put in that effort if a sufficiently massive pain-source is discovered.
(7/29/2015 8:17:48 PM) Kappa: I suppose they have no reason to know how dedicated the keeper is to her collection.
(7/29/2015 8:17:54 PM) Kel: XD
(7/29/2015 8:18:01 PM) Andygal: XD
(7/29/2015 8:18:04 PM) Evenstar: Basically they'd have to build a 'super deluxe minting kit -INDUSTRIAL USE ONLY, WARNING DO NOT WEAR IF NOT IMMORTAL-'
(7/29/2015 8:18:17 PM) Teceler: pfffft
(7/29/2015 8:18:35 PM) Kappa: But she would totally find a way to solve this problem, if they were like "we came out with a new coin but we don't have the technology to inflict enough pain to create it"
(7/29/2015 8:18:43 PM) Evenstar: pfffthahahah
(7/29/2015 8:18:54 PM) Teceler: XD
(7/29/2015 8:18:57 PM) Kel: XD
(7/29/2015 8:19:04 PM) Kel: The keeper is strange and delightful
(7/29/2015 8:19:14 PM) Teceler: ...Evenstar does the OTC have coins designed about Lotuses?
(7/29/2015 8:19:16 PM) Andygal: XD
(7/29/2015 8:19:17 PM) Teceler: *above
(7/29/2015 8:19:17 PM) Kappa: On the otehr hand, the keeper being the keeper, she might spend a few centuries on design.
(7/29/2015 8:19:21 PM) Teceler: pffft XD
(7/29/2015 8:19:37 PM) Kappa: Unless someone who worked on a more immediate timescale came along and helped.
(7/29/2015 8:19:57 PM) Kel: XD
(7/29/2015 8:20:11 PM) Kel: Backstage!
(7/29/2015 8:20:12 PM) Andygal: given how terrifying the billion takkarash piece is, I don't know if I want to see bigger ones, on the other hand bring 'em on.
(7/29/2015 8:20:16 PM) Kel: There is a new methods and tools tag
(7/29/2015 8:20:25 PM) Adelene: \o/
(7/29/2015 8:20:32 PM) Kel: I don't know if the face works though?
(7/29/2015 8:20:49 PM) Kappa: but anyway, yeah, put me down as highly interested now in having somebody-probably-Miles get hit with the TKR warding error and somebody-possibly-Gregor preside over a negligence case against the OTC on Barrayar.
(7/29/2015 8:20:59 PM) Teceler: pfft
(7/29/2015 8:21:12 PM) Evenstar: Teceler: Currently the Eldritch Lotuses are the largest coin-type that the OTC has made in the pain arena.
(7/29/2015 8:21:15 PM) Link: ME might volunteer for this, if it seemed like a valid takeover plan
(7/29/2015 8:21:21 PM) Teceler: pfffffft
(7/29/2015 8:21:23 PM) Kappa: volunteer for what?
(7/29/2015 8:21:28 PM) Evenstar: This is because they are made of an amount of pain that is roughly equal to a Cernnous.
(7/29/2015 8:21:30 PM) Teceler: I don't think it would work for ME?
(7/29/2015 8:21:32 PM) Link: Designing the pain generation and channeling things
(7/29/2015 8:21:35 PM) Teceler: oh
(7/29/2015 8:21:36 PM) Teceler: XD
(7/29/2015 8:21:49 PM) Link: also being the test subject if necessary
(7/29/2015 8:21:51 PM) Evenstar: I mean, in an order-of-magnitude sort of way :P
(7/29/2015 8:21:53 PM) Link: though he would play with his pain-utility settings
(7/29/2015 8:21:59 PM) Andygal: Kel: face is fine.
(7/29/2015 8:22:03 PM) Kappa: presumably he *wouldn't* volunteer to get killed by a Takkarash and then sue the OTC on Barrayar
(7/29/2015 8:22:10 PM) Link: ...
(7/29/2015 8:22:11 PM) Link: pfffffff
(7/29/2015 8:22:12 PM) Adelene: *snicker*
(7/29/2015 8:22:13 PM) Teceler: XD
(7/29/2015 8:22:17 PM) Adelene: hmmm
(7/29/2015 8:22:17 PM) Kel: (k thanks)
(7/29/2015 8:22:20 PM) Link: I feel like the OTC has very good lawyers
(7/29/2015 8:22:21 PM) Kappa: although Gregor in my head is contemplating *very large fines*
(7/29/2015 8:22:23 PM) Link: and that wouldn't get him very far anywy
(7/29/2015 8:22:27 PM) Kappa: Link. It's Barrayar.
(7/29/2015 8:22:31 PM) Teceler: XD
(7/29/2015 8:22:32 PM) Adelene: It is not impossible that Lurker could get killed by a Takkarash.
(7/29/2015 8:22:45 PM) Link: ... what about Barrayar is relevant here?
(7/29/2015 8:22:50 PM) Kel: brb, my hands want tea
(7/29/2015 8:22:58 PM) Andygal: ME probably wouldn't care if one of his ridiculous amounts of bodies got killed by a takkarash
(7/29/2015 8:23:05 PM) Andygal: ME: *makes a new body* Oh well.
(7/29/2015 8:23:09 PM) Link: hahahah
(7/29/2015 8:23:10 PM) Teceler: well except if that seemed like it would happen to people
(7/29/2015 8:23:12 PM) Link: yeah, but I dunno if TKR do that
(7/29/2015 8:23:20 PM) Teceler: who are not as ludicriously immortal as ME
(7/29/2015 8:23:20 PM) Kappa: Barrayaran law depends first on precedent and second on the opinions of the relevant person-in-authority. Third on, like, any other things.
(7/29/2015 8:23:20 PM) Link: they seem more people targeted than that
(7/29/2015 8:23:29 PM) Link: ....
(7/29/2015 8:23:31 PM) Teceler: XD
(7/29/2015 8:23:31 PM) Kappa: There is no precedent and Gregor is personally offended.
(7/29/2015 8:23:36 PM) Adelene: *giggle*
(7/29/2015 8:23:38 PM) Teceler: XD
(7/29/2015 8:23:40 PM) Link: "Give me your company"
(7/29/2015 8:23:43 PM) Link: "No."
(7/29/2015 8:23:52 PM) Teceler: XD
(7/29/2015 8:23:55 PM) Kappa: Oh, he wouldn't ask for the whole company.
(7/29/2015 8:24:02 PM) Kappa: He would be *fair*.
(7/29/2015 8:24:05 PM) Teceler: Xd
(7/29/2015 8:24:05 PM) PDV: Just 51% of it?
(7/29/2015 8:24:06 PM) Kappa: In a very *Gregor* way.
(7/29/2015 8:24:07 PM) Teceler: *XD
(7/29/2015 8:24:15 PM) Kappa: He would not at all use this as a takeover attempt.
(7/29/2015 8:24:30 PM) Teceler: ME: ... :(
(7/29/2015 8:24:38 PM) PDV: yeah, that would be for the munchkins
(7/29/2015 8:24:39 PM) Evenstar: Kappabeta: If Gregor is playing ball, then the OTC will as well
(7/29/2015 8:24:50 PM) Evenstar: But, I mean
(7/29/2015 8:25:05 PM) Evenstar: It always has the option of just picking up stakes and /leaving/
(7/29/2015 8:25:19 PM) Evenstar: It's a nuclear option but it's there.
(7/29/2015 8:25:20 PM) Andygal: the OTC would probably not play ball if Gregor tried to demand the entire company over one dead person who was daeva set anyway.
(7/29/2015 8:25:25 PM) Evenstar: Yep.
(7/29/2015 8:25:34 PM) Teceler: that probably involves losing the forum as a market, though, if people are sufficently offended
(7/29/2015 8:25:36 PM) Evenstar: And there is no precedent.
(7/29/2015 8:25:51 PM) Evenstar: So OTC will probably try to settle out of court.
(7/29/2015 8:25:55 PM) Teceler: pfft
(7/29/2015 8:25:55 PM) Andygal: they would probably just agree to patch that hole in the warding.
(7/29/2015 8:25:57 PM) Kappa: Hahahahahahaha.
(7/29/2015 8:26:41 PM) Teceler: I am not sure 'out of court' is a relevant concept here? :P
(7/29/2015 8:27:11 PM) Kappa: If they try to settle out of court they're talking to *Miles*, fresh from getting killed by their warding error.
(7/29/2015 8:27:16 PM) Teceler: XD
(7/29/2015 8:27:30 PM) Kappa: Really, they have no good options in this scenario.
(7/29/2015 8:27:36 PM) Adelene: hee ^^
(7/29/2015 8:28:27 PM) Teceler: brb
(7/29/2015 8:28:54 PM) Kappa: Like, Gregor would be very fair but also very mad and also much, much more concerned for the welfare of the OTC's future Takkarash customers than for the welfare of the OTC
(7/29/2015 8:29:11 PM) Kel: bk
(7/29/2015 8:29:28 PM) Evenstar: Yep. That will be fun.
(7/29/2015 8:29:54 PM) Kappa: Miles would be pretty damn mad, pretty damn concerned about future customers, and considerably more tempted to try to take a large bite out of the company in reparations.
(7/29/2015 8:30:22 PM) Kel: ... literally?
(7/29/2015 8:30:31 PM) Kappa: I mean, define "literally"
(7/29/2015 8:30:33 PM) Kel: I mean, in a metaphorical OTC body way?
(7/29/2015 8:31:11 PM) Kappa: Like, "You want to settle out of court? Fine, I want 10% of your Takkarash holdings as of my time of death." kind of a bite.
(7/29/2015 8:31:31 PM) Kel: ...
(7/29/2015 8:31:33 PM) Kel: that is a log
(7/29/2015 8:31:36 PM) Kel: *lot
(7/29/2015 8:31:42 PM) Kappa: <3
(7/29/2015 8:31:44 PM) Kel: <3
(7/29/2015 8:31:48 PM) Kel: oh funny thought
(7/29/2015 8:31:53 PM) Kel: if they were feeling vengeful
(7/29/2015 8:31:59 PM) Kel: they could give it all as one coin?
(7/29/2015 8:32:04 PM) Sonata: ahahaha
(7/29/2015 8:32:07 PM) Andygal: ahahahah
(7/29/2015 8:32:09 PM) Kappa: I was originally thinking Aral would be a better bet than Gregor, but they have about the same level of fair-mindedness and Aral is more personally entangled - I think actually Aral hands it off to Gregor because he expects Gregor to make better decisions on the subject than he would.
(7/29/2015 8:32:23 PM) Kel: aww
(7/29/2015 8:32:28 PM) Kel: Aral is a good egg
(7/29/2015 8:32:40 PM) Kel: Also, unrelated thought I had recently
(7/29/2015 8:32:49 PM) Kel: about a scenario that will now never be
(7/29/2015 8:32:54 PM) Evenstar: Kappabeta: On one hand, OTC would be hastily redesigning its currency.
(7/29/2015 8:32:57 PM) Kappa: by the way, *does* the OTC know about this warding error?
(7/29/2015 8:33:01 PM) Evenstar: Because that was totally unintended.
(7/29/2015 8:33:06 PM) Kappa: hah
(7/29/2015 8:33:20 PM) Kappa: The fact that they would be hastily redesigning their currency would mollify Gregor considerably.
(7/29/2015 8:33:41 PM) Evenstar: (Yeah, it's bad business to kill your customers)
(7/29/2015 8:33:54 PM) PDV is now known as PDVanished
(7/29/2015 8:33:57 PM) Evenstar: (That tends to be a nonsustainable business model)
(7/29/2015 8:34:18 PM) Kappa: "Redesign this with better safeties" would definitely be his #1 order/request in the case.
(7/29/2015 8:34:20 PM) Andygal: the OTC is not Stupid Evil.
(7/29/2015 8:34:21 PM) ***Kel sends a /look/ to people who make customers into food
(7/29/2015 8:34:44 PM) Kel: that is a /bad/ business model
(7/29/2015 8:34:48 PM) Kappa: So knowing that they were already on it would make him tend towards more leniency because clearly they have *some* idea of the proper response already
(7/29/2015 8:34:48 PM) Kel: and you should feel bad
(7/29/2015 8:36:24 PM) Kappa: But he would definitely hit them with a Very Large Fine, it just wouldn't be "10% of the TKR market" large.
(7/29/2015 8:37:17 PM) Andygal: how would *Miles* feel if he knew they were already redesigning the currency?
(7/29/2015 8:37:26 PM) Kappa: Still mad.
(7/29/2015 8:37:31 PM) Kappa: Vorkosigan temper. It's a thing.
(7/29/2015 8:37:40 PM) Kappa: Like, *less* mad, but still very much mad.
(7/29/2015 8:38:14 PM) Evenstar: Kel: Worked for the tobacco companies.
(7/29/2015 8:38:23 PM) Evenstar: (For a time.)
(7/29/2015 8:38:34 PM) Teceler: bk
(7/29/2015 8:38:41 PM) Kel: wb!
(7/29/2015 8:38:46 PM) Evenstar: Kappabeta: Yeah, large fines the OTC can deal with.
(7/29/2015 8:39:02 PM) Evenstar: They'd be prepared to settle for very large amounts out of court.
(7/29/2015 8:39:28 PM) Kappa: I'm really not sure what advantage they expect to gain from settling out of court in this scenario XD
(7/29/2015 8:39:36 PM) Kel: less embarassment?
(7/29/2015 8:39:44 PM) Andygal: less bad PR I guess.
(7/29/2015 8:39:46 PM) Kappa: It's not going to be a *public* judgment
(7/29/2015 8:39:54 PM) Kappa: other universes are still secret on Barrayar
(7/29/2015 8:40:06 PM) Teceler: pfft
(7/29/2015 8:40:13 PM) Teceler: but does the forum find out?
(7/29/2015 8:40:21 PM) Kappa: The forum finds out either way.
(7/29/2015 8:40:24 PM) Andygal: does the OTC know this kappabeta?
(7/29/2015 8:40:41 PM) Adelene: I have a hard time imagining Miles agreeing to or going along with a gag order, yes. ^^
(7/29/2015 8:41:17 PM) Adelene: Like, even if the OTC got to him before he told the forum, which seems pretty unlikely.
(7/29/2015 8:41:20 PM) Kappa: Yeah, they're not getting a gag order on this one. The best they're going to get is they show Miles that they are very sorry and working on immediately fixing the problem, and he acknowledges this when he tells the forum.
(7/29/2015 8:41:26 PM) Teceler: XD
(7/29/2015 8:41:58 PM) Kappa: He'd *probably* talk to the OTC *first*, particularly if Esthfora mentioned that they didn't know this was a thing.
(7/29/2015 8:42:50 PM) Adelene: mm.
(7/29/2015 8:43:17 PM) Evenstar: The point is if they settle out of court there is less precedent.
(7/29/2015 8:43:23 PM) Kappa: Like, because telling them "hey, your Takkarash is fucked up" might conceivably get it fixed faster than yelling about it on the forum
(7/29/2015 8:43:25 PM) Kappa: Ahahahaha.
(7/29/2015 8:43:32 PM) Teceler: pfft
(7/29/2015 8:43:34 PM) Evenstar: They do not want to have it in legal fact that they have been negligent.
(7/29/2015 8:43:39 PM) Kappa: pff.
(7/29/2015 8:43:42 PM) Kappa: Yeah, uh.
(7/29/2015 8:43:46 PM) Evenstar: (because /some/ universes are /good/ at this litigation thing)
(7/29/2015 8:43:50 PM) Teceler: XD
(7/29/2015 8:43:55 PM) Kappa: XD
(7/29/2015 8:43:56 PM) Evenstar: (And will go to /extreme lengths/ to find precedent)
(7/29/2015 8:44:00 PM) Teceler: they are supposed to /fixing the thing/
(7/29/2015 8:44:03 PM) Teceler: *to be
(7/29/2015 8:44:08 PM) Evenstar: They are!
(7/29/2015 8:44:16 PM) Evenstar: But every precedent against them is a wound.
(7/29/2015 8:44:30 PM) Evenstar: (In a very real spiritual way to the OTC)
(7/29/2015 8:44:42 PM) Adelene: aww.
(7/29/2015 8:44:44 PM) Kel: aw
(7/29/2015 8:44:51 PM) Teceler: ow.
(7/29/2015 8:44:55 PM) Kel: [hugs for OTC]
(7/29/2015 8:44:59 PM) Kappa: XD
(7/29/2015 8:45:00 PM) Andygal: they'd rather take a bigger fine settling out of court?
(7/29/2015 8:45:03 PM) Evenstar: (The OTC /failed/ in a /duty/, that is /breach of contract/)
(7/29/2015 8:45:09 PM) Kel: aw
(7/29/2015 8:45:10 PM) Evenstar: (OTC /is/ contract)
(7/29/2015 8:45:14 PM) Teceler: ...aww
(7/29/2015 8:45:18 PM) Teceler: *aw
(7/29/2015 8:45:35 PM) Evenstar: (They would rather take a larger fine and settle out of court.)
(7/29/2015 8:46:20 PM) Andygal: awwwwwww
(7/29/2015 8:46:22 PM) Evenstar: (It's the difference between getting slashed with a knife and having a bone broken by a club, to the OTC.)
(7/29/2015 8:46:30 PM) Kappa: ahahahaha
(7/29/2015 8:46:33 PM) Link left the room (quit: Connection reset by peer).
(7/29/2015 8:46:33 PM) Andygal: ...awwwwww
(7/29/2015 8:46:42 PM) Evenstar: (If we're using the 'money is blood and contracts are bones' metaphor.)
(7/29/2015 8:48:43 PM) Teceler: Evenstar, Thorn and DL are talking about the OTC on methods and tools, if you're interested
(7/29/2015 8:49:11 PM) Kappa: If Miles guesses this motive - and he's likely to - he might deliberately aim for an *outrageously* large settlement to see just how big a knife he needs to hold on them before they'll prefer the club
(7/29/2015 8:49:27 PM) Link entered the room.
(7/29/2015 8:49:30 PM) Kel: Hi!
(7/29/2015 8:49:34 PM) Teceler: wb link?
(7/29/2015 8:49:45 PM) Teceler: also, pfft, Miles
(7/29/2015 8:49:47 PM) Kel: huh. I did not model Miles as that vengeful?
(7/29/2015 8:49:59 PM) Link: flailure
(7/29/2015 8:50:04 PM) Link: what'd I miss about Miles?
(7/29/2015 8:50:11 PM) Teceler: what was the last thing you saw?
(7/29/2015 8:50:11 PM) Kel: what was the last thing you was
(7/29/2015 8:50:14 PM) Kel: *saw
(7/29/2015 8:50:16 PM) Teceler: pfft
(7/29/2015 8:50:16 PM) Kel: XD
(7/29/2015 8:50:19 PM) Kappa: It's not that he's *vengeful* exactly
(7/29/2015 8:50:25 PM) Link: <Kel> aw
(7/29/2015 8:50:25 PM) Link: <Evenstar> (OTC /is/ contract)
(7/29/2015 8:50:25 PM) Link: <Teceler> ...aww
(7/29/2015 8:50:25 PM) Link: <Teceler> *aw
(7/29/2015 8:50:25 PM) Link: <Evenstar> (They would rather take a larger fine and settle out of court.)
(7/29/2015 8:50:37 PM) Teceler: <Andygal> awwwwwww
(7/29/2015 8:50:37 PM) Teceler: <Evenstar> (It's the difference between getting slashed with a knife and having a bone broken by a club, to the OTC.)
(7/29/2015 8:50:37 PM) Teceler: <kappabeta> ahahahaha
(7/29/2015 8:50:37 PM) Teceler: * linkhyrule5 has quit (Connection reset by peer)
(7/29/2015 8:50:37 PM) Teceler: <Andygal> ...awwwwww
(7/29/2015 8:50:38 PM) Teceler: <Evenstar> (If we're using the 'money is blood and contracts are bones' metaphor.)
(7/29/2015 8:50:40 PM) Teceler: <Teceler> Evenstar, Thorn and DL are talking about the OTC on methods and tools, if you're interested
(7/29/2015 8:50:43 PM) Teceler: <kappabeta> If Miles guesses this motive - and he's likely to - he might deliberately aim for an *outrageously* large settlement to see just how big a knife he needs to hold on them before they'll prefer the club
(7/29/2015 8:50:45 PM) Teceler: * linkhyrule5 has joined #backstage
(7/29/2015 8:51:09 PM) Kel: what is it instead?
(7/29/2015 8:51:59 PM) Link: .... pfff
(7/29/2015 8:51:59 PM) Link: charming
(7/29/2015 8:52:07 PM) Kappa: XD
(7/29/2015 8:52:10 PM) Andygal: is he just trying to poke the sapient corporation with a stick to see what happens?
(7/29/2015 8:52:19 PM) Kappa: no, not that either, exactly.
(7/29/2015 8:52:30 PM) Teceler: he wants them to go to court?
(7/29/2015 8:52:30 PM) Kappa: Like, if he was thinking of it in those kinds of visceral terms he'd be much gentler about it probably
(7/29/2015 8:52:31 PM) Kappa: but, hm
(7/29/2015 8:53:32 PM) Evenstar: Teceler: I see!
(7/29/2015 8:53:35 PM) Kappa: He wants them to go to court and *specifically* I think he - I think it's a very Miles notion of - dammit, why humans why must you have words
(7/29/2015 8:53:52 PM) Kappa: brb getting a drink and attempting to reboot my language centers
(7/29/2015 8:53:53 PM) Sonata: <3
(7/29/2015 8:53:55 PM) Kel: k
(7/29/2015 8:53:58 PM) Kel: <3
(7/29/2015 8:54:29 PM) Evenstar: Kappabeta: That is kind of nasty of him. In any case, I would expect a pretty big knife.
(7/29/2015 8:54:34 PM) ***Link is still proud of that meme
(7/29/2015 8:54:39 PM) Kel: <3
(7/29/2015 8:54:43 PM) Kel: as well you should be
(7/29/2015 8:54:44 PM) Andygal: <3
(7/29/2015 8:54:44 PM) Sonata: guessing: he wants them to have accountability and not just buy him off?
(7/29/2015 8:55:29 PM) Evenstar: (also, cuddling gods is cute)
(7/29/2015 8:55:31 PM) Sonata: or: he wants them to formally accept responsibility and not be able to pretend like nothing happened?
(7/29/2015 8:55:55 PM) Sonata: ooh! is cuddling gods threading?
(7/29/2015 8:56:01 PM) Kel: not really?
(7/29/2015 8:56:05 PM) Sonata: oh
(7/29/2015 8:56:15 PM) Kel: it has not updated since 3 hours ago?
(7/29/2015 8:56:18 PM) Kel: so sorta?
(7/29/2015 8:56:59 PM) ***Adelene wonders vaguely if anybody else (besides Tec, I know you're busy) was meaning to post on the personhood thread.
(7/29/2015 8:57:10 PM) Teceler: (Evenstar, I irc-pmed you, I don't know if you saw)
(7/29/2015 8:57:16 PM) Kel: when Janice gets an account she will
(7/29/2015 8:57:33 PM) Kel: she will add something about how another thing that doesn't define personhood is how real someone is
(7/29/2015 8:57:33 PM) Adelene: Is there a reason Janice isn't getting an account yet?
(7/29/2015 8:57:38 PM) Link: ChibE plans to
(7/29/2015 8:57:43 PM) Link: but I mean
(7/29/2015 8:57:43 PM) Link: *flails*
(7/29/2015 8:57:43 PM) Kel: I am trying to pick a name
(7/29/2015 8:57:49 PM) Kel: [hugs?]
(7/29/2015 8:57:53 PM) Link: *continues to flail at life*
(7/29/2015 8:57:55 PM) Teceler: [hugs for link]
(7/29/2015 8:57:57 PM) Kappa: (9:55:38 PM) Sonata: or: he wants them to formally accept responsibility and not be able to pretend like nothing happened? << This is a big big piece
(7/29/2015 8:58:27 PM) ***Link is hugged!
(7/29/2015 8:59:18 PM) Kappa: Like, I phrased it in a nasty way that really misrepresented his motives, which are actually much more complex and way less vengeful, it is incorrect for me to think of Miles and his family in vengeful terms because except for Aral's latent temper problems they very much aren't
(7/29/2015 8:59:47 PM) Kel: ah
(7/29/2015 9:00:10 PM) Kel: yeah I was having a kinda hard time imaginging Miles threatening to stab someone until they were okay with having bones broken instead
(7/29/2015 9:00:34 PM) Andygal: well MIles isn't thinking of it that way in character.
(7/29/2015 9:01:02 PM) Link: ...
(7/29/2015 9:01:10 PM) Teceler: what link?
(7/29/2015 9:01:17 PM) Link: *is wondering what would have happened if it was Mark*
(7/29/2015 9:01:18 PM) Link: *and it was a scenario where he would really take offence*
(7/29/2015 9:01:25 PM) Kappa: pfffffffff oh my god.
(7/29/2015 9:01:25 PM) Teceler: pfft
(7/29/2015 9:01:33 PM) Link: (because sometimes I feel like he would not take offence at someone accidentally killing him)
(7/29/2015 9:01:46 PM) Kappa: Mark would kind of laugh off being accidentally killed.
(7/29/2015 9:01:46 PM) Kel: Oh, there will be Night Vale spoilers in the DL tag after the next one
(7/29/2015 9:01:49 PM) Kel: awww
(7/29/2015 9:01:50 PM) Evenstar: ... pffft I just read ME's post on 'how to tell if you are in a high-mana region or if you are a high-tier Mage'
(7/29/2015 9:01:59 PM) Kappa: He'd be like "oh, you're fixing it? All right then, carry on, no harm done"
(7/29/2015 9:02:00 PM) Andygal: Mark is rather thoroughally unkillable anyway.
(7/29/2015 9:02:04 PM) Kappa: yes
(7/29/2015 9:02:08 PM) Kappa: if this was pre-daeva though
(7/29/2015 9:02:18 PM) Teceler: kappabeta: I mean, if being killed messed with his ability to do something important, though?
(7/29/2015 9:02:31 PM) Kappa: Then he'd be more annoyed about it.
(7/29/2015 9:02:43 PM) Kappa: And yeah, uh. if the OTC managed to accidentally harm Mark in a way that *really, really got to him*
(7/29/2015 9:02:46 PM) Kappa: I would not want to be the OTC.
(7/29/2015 9:02:48 PM) Link: Evenstar: :D
(7/29/2015 9:02:53 PM) Link: Actually it's ChibE
(7/29/2015 9:02:54 PM) Link: but yes.
(7/29/2015 9:02:56 PM) Link: It is.
(7/29/2015 9:02:58 PM) Kappa: See also: current events in Effulgent Nexus.
(7/29/2015 9:03:00 PM) Link: Generally obvious.
(7/29/2015 9:03:19 PM) Link: Sonata - on a side note
(7/29/2015 9:03:24 PM) Link: what's Ahrotan's opinion
(7/29/2015 9:03:24 PM) Sonata: Hm?
(7/29/2015 9:03:27 PM) Link: on that post?
(7/29/2015 9:03:45 PM) Kappa: Mark would be fully capable of deciding that he would like the OTC to stop, and then devoting his next several millennia of thoroughly immortal existence to this cause.
(7/29/2015 9:03:50 PM) Sonata: Reassured.
(7/29/2015 9:03:51 PM) Kappa: But this would only be for major major offences
(7/29/2015 9:04:09 PM) Link: hahahah
(7/29/2015 9:04:09 PM) Kappa: like, merely accidentally getting him killed or tortured or whatever wouldn't do it
(7/29/2015 9:04:12 PM) Link: Only reassured?
(7/29/2015 9:04:20 PM) Link: pfff
(7/29/2015 9:04:20 PM) Link: oh Mark
(7/29/2015 9:04:41 PM) Kappa: you would have to accidentally make him go through the equivalent of his childhood over again or some shit
(7/29/2015 9:04:52 PM) Link: ...
(7/29/2015 9:04:56 PM) Kappa: anyway but I was talking about Miles
(7/29/2015 9:05:07 PM) Link: Mark in a time loop
(7/29/2015 9:05:09 PM) Kappa: *resumes talking about Miles*
(7/29/2015 9:05:14 PM) Link: that ends when he leaves home.
(7/29/2015 9:05:15 PM) Link: >.>
(7/29/2015 9:05:24 PM) Teceler: link
(7/29/2015 9:05:30 PM) Sonata: link no
(7/29/2015 9:05:31 PM) ***Link is feeling energetically awful today
(7/29/2015 9:05:31 PM) Kappa: ... who put Mark in that time loop
(7/29/2015 9:05:34 PM) Kappa: and why did they do this
(7/29/2015 9:05:38 PM) Kappa: these are very important questions
(7/29/2015 9:05:41 PM) Sonata: because Eeeeevul
(7/29/2015 9:05:54 PM) Sonata: Link did, and because he's a joker and therefore Must Suffer
(7/29/2015 9:06:07 PM) Link: ...
(7/29/2015 9:06:10 PM) ***Link hides behinid Aisilian
(7/29/2015 9:06:11 PM) ***Link runs.
(7/29/2015 9:06:13 PM) Kappa: XDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
(7/29/2015 9:06:14 PM) Teceler: pfft
(7/29/2015 9:06:14 PM) Kel: aw
(7/29/2015 9:06:20 PM) Sonata: Aisilian will not save you.
(7/29/2015 9:06:27 PM) Sonata: Rather the opposite, actually.
(7/29/2015 9:06:30 PM) Link: Alternatively, "the whole world is looping and Mark happens to be awake"
(7/29/2015 9:06:32 PM) Link: hahahah
(7/29/2015 9:06:39 PM) Teceler: XD
(7/29/2015 9:06:43 PM) Kel: is that an apocalypse that happened?
(7/29/2015 9:06:48 PM) Evenstar left the room (quit: Quit:
www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client).
(7/29/2015 9:06:52 PM) Link: Aisilian would not want me to suffer, but he might do creepy psychosurgery to my mind to make it not happen again
(7/29/2015 9:06:53 PM) Teceler: I have seen that apocalypse somewhere
(7/29/2015 9:06:54 PM) Link: if I kept my writery powers
(7/29/2015 9:07:07 PM) Link: so, toss-up >.>
(7/29/2015 9:07:11 PM) Kappa: Although "because he's a joker and therefore Must Suffer" is actually a pretty legit reason and if you actually did that and he actually caught up to you he might just shrug and be like "fair enough"
(7/29/2015 9:07:16 PM) Link: ...
(7/29/2015 9:07:19 PM) Link: pffffffffhahahahahahaha
(7/29/2015 9:07:20 PM) Link: what
(7/29/2015 9:07:21 PM) Teceler: ...pfft
(7/29/2015 9:07:22 PM) Sonata: Teceler, I think _Mathematically Bound Demons and Their Behavior_
(7/29/2015 9:07:23 PM) ***Link has no words at all
(7/29/2015 9:07:27 PM) Link: Yeah, that thing
(7/29/2015 9:07:27 PM) ***Kel metaphorically sits on linkbrain and hisses at ME
(7/29/2015 9:07:29 PM) Link: that thing is amazing
(7/29/2015 9:07:33 PM) Link: Kel: pff. Aw.
(7/29/2015 9:08:13 PM) Andygal: dood, ME you are going to get your retconned wife back eventually!
(7/29/2015 9:08:14 PM) Kappa: Like, that's a half-decent summary of the reason why *I* do terrible things to Jokers, and Jokers totally support me doing terrible things to them
(7/29/2015 9:08:28 PM) Kappa: anyway but I was talking about Miles I keep getting distracted
(7/29/2015 9:08:47 PM) Teceler: pfft
(7/29/2015 9:09:15 PM) Kel: I like having all the tags written out ahead of time because it feels really efficient when tagging
(7/29/2015 9:09:19 PM) Kappa: regarding Miles going after the OTC: Relevantly: I don't think this is fully confirmed in canon, but I think on Barrayar the punishments for big important crimes are way more drastic if you're Vor - like, canonically a Vor convicted of treason gets staked out in a public area to die of starvation and exposure; I have a strong suspicion that a non-Vor getting convicted of the same crime is merely put to death
(7/29/2015 9:09:33 PM) Kappa: in a comparatively humane fashion
(7/29/2015 9:09:38 PM) Teceler: Kel: eventually we are going to hit the end of the buffer :(
(7/29/2015 9:10:09 PM) Kel: aw
(7/29/2015 9:10:11 PM) Kel: =(
(7/29/2015 9:10:12 PM) Kappa: because it's *not* really the same crime if you're Vor because if you're Vor not committing treason is like the entire *point* of you? this is not quite the logic but it's sort of an element of the situation
(7/29/2015 9:10:27 PM) Teceler: ...pfft
(7/29/2015 9:10:33 PM) Kappa: anyway and like
(7/29/2015 9:10:39 PM) Kel: Job Description: not committing treason
(7/29/2015 9:10:41 PM) Teceler: XD
(7/29/2015 9:10:42 PM) Kappa: XD
(7/29/2015 9:10:45 PM) Adelene: Vor have Promised not to do that, is a thing.
(7/29/2015 9:10:50 PM) Kappa: not even job description. *life* description
(7/29/2015 9:10:52 PM) Kappa: Yes.
(7/29/2015 9:10:53 PM) Kappa: Promised.
(7/29/2015 9:11:08 PM) Kel: in a More Meaningful way than like. ImpMil agents?
(7/29/2015 9:11:16 PM) Kel: er. or whatever the ops people are called?
(7/29/2015 9:11:24 PM) Teceler: *ImpSec?
(7/29/2015 9:11:27 PM) Kel: no
(7/29/2015 9:11:30 PM) Kel: the thing Ivan is
(7/29/2015 9:11:34 PM) Teceler: ah
(7/29/2015 9:11:36 PM) Teceler: hm
(7/29/2015 9:11:40 PM) Kappa: Ivan is a member of the Imperial Service
(7/29/2015 9:11:45 PM) Kel: that thing!
(7/29/2015 9:11:46 PM) Kel: yeah!
(7/29/2015 9:11:47 PM) Kappa: which doesn't get abbreviated that I know of
(7/29/2015 9:11:54 PM) Kel: ImpSer?
(7/29/2015 9:11:59 PM) Kel: ImpServ?
(7/29/2015 9:12:01 PM) Kappa: not attested, sounds wrong
(7/29/2015 9:12:05 PM) Teceler: Everyone: [is shortly confused]
(7/29/2015 9:12:20 PM) Kel: ImpVice? :P
(7/29/2015 9:12:26 PM) Kappa: If you join the Imperial Service you do take a loyalty oath but it's a *different* oath than the Vor one
(7/29/2015 9:12:33 PM) Kel: mhm
(7/29/2015 9:12:48 PM) Kappa: and it's quite possible that the military courts will fuck you up in their own special way
(7/29/2015 9:12:52 PM) Teceler: pfft
(7/29/2015 9:12:54 PM) Kel: XD
(7/29/2015 9:13:10 PM) Link: ME: *is politely confused at the concept of punishment*
(7/29/2015 9:13:14 PM) Teceler: pffffft
(7/29/2015 9:13:19 PM) Kappa: pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
(7/29/2015 9:13:44 PM) Kappa: anyway no so there's that just kind of as background and then like
(7/29/2015 9:15:29 PM) Sonata: @metame: {iterated prisoner's dilemma, tit-for-tat in; crafting incentive structures to support prosocial behavior}
(7/29/2015 9:16:32 PM) Kappa: Miles, personally, if *he* were the sort of creature that the OTC is, would *not* want to be the sort of creature that could *escape* the consequences of fucking up like this by merely settling out of court; and if he were the one being pursued into Gregor's court over a matter substantially similar to this, he'd show up. He is the weasel of all weasels but some things you just can't and shouldn't weasel out of.
(7/29/2015 9:16:35 PM) Link: ME: Well yeah, but you can do all of that with psychosurgery /and/ do something productive with the local problem
(7/29/2015 9:16:47 PM) Kappa: ~~~~psychosurgery is terrifying~~~~
(7/29/2015 9:16:50 PM) Andygal: ....
(7/29/2015 9:16:57 PM) Kappa: His sense of justice isn't "if you do wrong you should suffer", it's "if you do wrong you should *notice*"
(7/29/2015 9:17:13 PM) Link: I mean, in Entelechy, the line between very good social and psychsurgery
(7/29/2015 9:17:18 PM) Link: is /absurdly/ blurry
(7/29/2015 9:17:25 PM) Link: like, I think the only place blurrier is WoD
(7/29/2015 9:17:27 PM) Kappa: ~~~entelechy is terrifying~~~
(7/29/2015 9:17:28 PM) Teceler: pfft
(7/29/2015 9:17:31 PM) Andygal: I have so much screaming for judicial psychosurgery.
(7/29/2015 9:17:33 PM) Teceler: and yes it is
(7/29/2015 9:17:38 PM) Link: where "talking to someone" is literally a Mind 3 "change their mind" spell
(7/29/2015 9:17:58 PM) Link: so ultimately people go and talk criminals out of committing crimes
(7/29/2015 9:18:15 PM) Teceler: Andygal: ...um. That is, um, a thing in Eclipse. (Although it's mostly in the 'block the relevant behavior' sense)
(7/29/2015 9:18:34 PM) Link: which is generally seen as more humane than "randomly hurt them and hope they change"
(7/29/2015 9:18:57 PM) Kel: well
(7/29/2015 9:18:57 PM) Andygal: well blocking somebody from doing something is different from reprogramming them so they don't want to do it anymore.
(7/29/2015 9:19:05 PM) Andygal: I have so much screaming for the latter.
(7/29/2015 9:19:08 PM) Teceler: ah
(7/29/2015 9:19:21 PM) Teceler: yeah that is less bad
(7/29/2015 9:19:27 PM) Kel: hm the latter is I think supposed to be the goal of most punishments?
(7/29/2015 9:19:29 PM) Sonata: nono, it needs to be very /nonrandom/
(7/29/2015 9:19:55 PM) Kappa: Link: I mean "ultimately people go and talk criminals out of committing crimes" sounds very very different from "psychosurgery" to *us*
(7/29/2015 9:20:00 PM) Link: Random is not the word
(7/29/2015 9:20:02 PM) Link: I'm being sleepy
(7/29/2015 9:20:02 PM) Link: and sily
(7/29/2015 9:20:03 PM) Kappa: Is this another advertising mind control situation
(7/29/2015 9:20:08 PM) Andygal: Kel: rewriting people's thought proceses is bad, mkay?
(7/29/2015 9:20:09 PM) Link: Mm, maybe
(7/29/2015 9:20:12 PM) Sonata: there need to be /policies/ of when and whether and how much people get hurt, and those policies need to be publicly known and consistently followed
(7/29/2015 9:20:13 PM) Kel: yeah I agree
(7/29/2015 9:20:24 PM) Kel: re: anydagl
(7/29/2015 9:20:25 PM) Link: like, basically, in Entelechy there isn't a difference?
(7/29/2015 9:20:39 PM) Kappa: what kind of a difference isn't there?
(7/29/2015 9:20:42 PM) Andygal: Entelechy continues to be creepy.
(7/29/2015 9:20:45 PM) Link: and complaining about one but not the other is kind of like making laws about witchcraft when it doesn't exist?
(7/29/2015 9:20:49 PM) Kel: I just think that is in fact the /goal/ of punishment, although the implementation is kinda not good at that?
(7/29/2015 9:20:54 PM) Link left the room (Leaving).
(7/29/2015 9:20:59 PM) Link entered the room.
(7/29/2015 9:21:00 PM) Kappa: ...XD
(7/29/2015 9:21:04 PM) Eva entered the room.
(7/29/2015 9:21:05 PM) Link: that was random
(7/29/2015 9:21:05 PM) Link: anywy
(7/29/2015 9:21:06 PM) Sonata: I agree, Kel
(7/29/2015 9:21:09 PM) Sonata: oh hi Eva
(7/29/2015 9:21:11 PM) Eva is now known as Evenstar
(7/29/2015 9:21:26 PM) Link: Basically, like - it's a thing in ENtelechy, that doing /anything/ well enough
(7/29/2015 9:21:28 PM) Evenstar: hi again!
(7/29/2015 9:21:30 PM) Link: starts treading on the grounds of True Magic
(7/29/2015 9:21:37 PM) Teceler: wb Eva
(7/29/2015 9:21:39 PM) Link: A swordsman who achieves enlightenment will learn to cut space and time
(7/29/2015 9:21:41 PM) Teceler: *Evenstar
(7/29/2015 9:21:55 PM) Link: an artist who masters painting will draw living worlds
(7/29/2015 9:22:03 PM) Sonata: Evenstar, Ahrotahn is going to go to bed an hour early tonight, immediately after minting 1/10 Dyne. Does this work in the obvious way that she's hoping for?
(7/29/2015 9:22:14 PM) Andygal: sounds kind of like Earthdawn, where even the warrior classes are technically using magic.
(7/29/2015 9:22:24 PM) Link: And a public speaker who keeps practicing... will eventually learn to just outright change people's minds.
(7/29/2015 9:22:31 PM) Link: And make even the stones weep.
(7/29/2015 9:22:32 PM) Kappa: link: ... ... ...
(7/29/2015 9:22:49 PM) Link: "So skilled a singer that the wind wailed to hear it"
(7/29/2015 9:22:51 PM) Link: is a thing
(7/29/2015 9:22:56 PM) Teceler: this is why mental shields are a basic human right in Entelechy
(7/29/2015 9:22:57 PM) Teceler: isn't it
(7/29/2015 9:23:00 PM) Link: Yes.
(7/29/2015 9:23:02 PM) Link: Yes it is.
(7/29/2015 9:23:24 PM) Andygal: this is why outside character should not visit entelechy.
(7/29/2015 9:23:37 PM) Sonata: ~absurdly high power setting~
(7/29/2015 9:23:51 PM) Andygal: because they don't have the ludcrious amounts of warding necessary to protect them from horrible creepiness.
(7/29/2015 9:23:53 PM) Sonata: aka elemental plane of !!plot!!
(7/29/2015 9:24:10 PM) Kappa: this is the kind of cosmology that makes certain of my templates (Jokers are yelling the loudest) want to go pick a fight with a universe.
(7/29/2015 9:24:15 PM) Evenstar: Sonata: That works out in the obvious way she's hoping for!
(7/29/2015 9:24:30 PM) Link: hahah
(7/29/2015 9:24:42 PM) Link: on a side note, no resposnes to the random apoocalypsi?
(7/29/2015 9:25:02 PM) Andygal: you know Anda might want to mint some Dyne occasionally if it helps one sleep....
(7/29/2015 9:25:08 PM) Sonata: I wasn't sure how well/reliably/consistently/thoroughly 'out of spoons' was tied to 'sleepy'
(7/29/2015 9:25:11 PM) Evenstar: Nah, we're pretty much used to the Etelechy being the elemental plane of !!PLOT!!
(7/29/2015 9:25:16 PM) Link: awwww
(7/29/2015 9:25:24 PM) Link: But the characters aren't! :P
(7/29/2015 9:25:29 PM) ***Link likes reactions to ENtelechy
(7/29/2015 9:25:29 PM) Evenstar: Sonata: Well, it makes her 1 hour of activity more fatigued
(7/29/2015 9:25:34 PM) ***Link enjoys having a swelled ego, it's fun :P
(7/29/2015 9:25:37 PM) Evenstar: It isn't a direct sleep aid
(7/29/2015 9:25:38 PM) Evenstar: Because, uh
(7/29/2015 9:25:43 PM) Kel: Link you are a cute
(7/29/2015 9:25:48 PM) Evenstar: That's like saying 'staying up later' is a sleep aid
(7/29/2015 9:25:48 PM) Kel: your setting is cool
(7/29/2015 9:25:49 PM) Andygal: Singer might have a response to the general "random chaotic magical effects" thing.
(7/29/2015 9:25:49 PM) Kel: and weird
(7/29/2015 9:25:50 PM) Link: XD
(7/29/2015 9:26:08 PM) Andygal: because in her universe that's usually a sign somebody fucked up real good.
(7/29/2015 9:26:13 PM) Link: haha
(7/29/2015 9:26:14 PM) Evenstar: But it /can/ be used like that with some preparation
(7/29/2015 9:26:24 PM) Kappa: Jokers are yelling the loudest but Mileses aren't honestly that far behind - Mileses have *serious ethical problems* with the idea of just forcibly changing people's minds, and the thought that they could do it by accident merely by themselvesing at people gives them the horrors
(7/29/2015 9:26:26 PM) Kel: also, on an unrelated note, I would like to facetiously vote for humans to stop having faces
(7/29/2015 9:26:39 PM) Link: ...
(7/29/2015 9:26:40 PM) Link: :D
(7/29/2015 9:26:44 PM) Evenstar: ... ?
(7/29/2015 9:26:48 PM) Kappa: what, link.
(7/29/2015 9:26:49 PM) Link: XP
(7/29/2015 9:26:50 PM) Sonata: I mean, if you tried to mint heavily, would you end up sleeping 23 hours a day, or would you end up too tired to do anything but also unable to sleep?
(7/29/2015 9:27:12 PM) Evenstar: Sonata: A if you tried to sleep, B if you tried to do anything useful.
(7/29/2015 9:27:20 PM) Link: kappabeta - also, I mean... like, talking to people is changing their mind?
(7/29/2015 9:27:28 PM) Kappa: Link, do you WANT jokerbold and Mark and Miles to go on a crusade to make alethics stop happening :P
(7/29/2015 9:27:31 PM) Link: Some of the relevant spells are literally "skip the talking step", but otherwise aren't adifference
(7/29/2015 9:27:32 PM) Link: hahah
(7/29/2015 9:27:35 PM) Evenstar: It makes you more fatigued, your body responds by asking for sleep.
(7/29/2015 9:27:55 PM) Andygal: Kel: would you like help again?
(7/29/2015 9:27:57 PM) Evenstar: It gets more esoteric when you're talking with someone like say Tyche
(7/29/2015 9:28:00 PM) Kel: yes please
(7/29/2015 9:28:02 PM) Evenstar: Or Isabella
(7/29/2015 9:28:04 PM) Sonata: but if you try to do something useful, find you can't, change your mind and try to go to sleep, are you now unable to?
(7/29/2015 9:28:04 PM) Kel: spoilerwarning
(7/29/2015 9:28:12 PM) Evenstar: Sonata: Nope.
(7/29/2015 9:28:28 PM) Evenstar: Not any more than you would be unable to usually, that is
(7/29/2015 9:28:41 PM) Evenstar: after trying to do something useful while overtired
(7/29/2015 9:28:50 PM) Evenstar: having not slept for about 23 hours
(7/29/2015 9:28:58 PM) Evenstar: (or however much you minted)
(7/29/2015 9:29:09 PM) Sonata: but you can sleep 23 hours a day on negative dyne even if you couldn't normally?
(7/29/2015 9:29:24 PM) Evenstar: Sonata: Yes. Bedsores could be an issue.
(7/29/2015 9:29:42 PM) Evenstar: OTC reccommends you not mint more than about a week of Dyne at once.
(7/29/2015 9:29:47 PM) Teceler: ...incidentally, link, I think Eclipse is inclined to draw a line there, actually, between social and mindcontrol, using Ego.
(7/29/2015 9:29:57 PM) Evenstar: (Unless you have extenuating circumstances)
(7/29/2015 9:30:01 PM) Link: Oh?
(7/29/2015 9:30:13 PM) Link: I mean, I'm kind of having trouble seeing it
(7/29/2015 9:30:19 PM) Link: assuming the results are identical
(7/29/2015 9:30:26 PM) Link: I mean "basilisk hack" is deifnitely mindcontrol
(7/29/2015 9:30:41 PM) Teceler: It's a /slightly fuzzy/ line, but
(7/29/2015 9:30:47 PM) Andygal: I think the problem is that link does not understand how social works.
(7/29/2015 9:30:53 PM) Teceler: ...pfft
(7/29/2015 9:30:56 PM) Kel: ..
(7/29/2015 9:30:58 PM) Link: pff
(7/29/2015 9:30:59 PM) Andygal: and thinks it's magic.
(7/29/2015 9:31:10 PM) Link: Less magic
(7/29/2015 9:31:13 PM) Link: more computer science
(7/29/2015 9:31:16 PM) Teceler: I mean, link is not entirely wrong about the thing? but
(7/29/2015 9:31:19 PM) Kel: it is a process by which things happen
(7/29/2015 9:31:20 PM) Kappa: It's possible I could provide a useful angle on this via discussing Miles's horrors
(7/29/2015 9:31:32 PM) Link: Social is ultimately "throw information at people, they update on it"
(7/29/2015 9:31:34 PM) Sonata: maybe it could be interpreted as the Ego rune provides everyone with a ward against mental tampering automatically for free?
(7/29/2015 9:31:40 PM) Kel: like, being really good at convincing people sorta /is/ mind control?
(7/29/2015 9:31:46 PM) Teceler: Sonata: that breaks basilisk hacks XD
(7/29/2015 9:31:47 PM) Adelene: (huh, it occurs to me that Lurker could mint two dyne/day and just, like, have the same sleep schedule Miles does.)
(7/29/2015 9:31:52 PM) Kappa: because like, Miles's ability to convince people of things is damn close to mind control, let's be honest
(7/29/2015 9:32:02 PM) Link: hahahh
(7/29/2015 9:32:17 PM) Link: if you know how they update on information you can use particular not necessarily accurate information bits to make them update into a certain mind
(7/29/2015 9:32:29 PM) Link: mind control is skipping the politeness step, but the ultimate result is the same
(7/29/2015 9:32:32 PM) Kappa: but it doesn't give him horrors until you start bringing comparisons to actual mind control into it and it's like ...
(7/29/2015 9:32:35 PM) Kappa: oh man
(7/29/2015 9:32:41 PM) Kappa: he is yelling so loud right now
(7/29/2015 9:32:43 PM) Link: hahaha
(7/29/2015 9:32:52 PM) Teceler: aw, Miles
(7/29/2015 9:33:02 PM) Kappa: but i'm probably going to crash before i can properly explain the yelling, but i can try anyway if you want, but first brb
(7/29/2015 9:33:11 PM) Link: well, proper mind control can get a brain into configurations that can't be reached through social
(7/29/2015 9:33:16 PM) Link: and that is, well, outright mind control
(7/29/2015 9:33:25 PM) Link: but there's a pretty blurry region there where you're just "skipping the social step"
(7/29/2015 9:33:35 PM) Andygal: like charm person?
(7/29/2015 9:33:44 PM) Link: sort of, yeah
(7/29/2015 9:33:55 PM) Teceler: 'skipping the social step' is, like, not at all a blurry-edged thing, though?
(7/29/2015 9:34:14 PM) Kappa: Okay, I have put dishes in the sink and I am prepared to explain Miles's yelling, or at least try to.
(7/29/2015 9:34:17 PM) Evenstar: I think what Linkhyrule5 is trying to say is
(7/29/2015 9:34:24 PM) Sonata: (Ahrotahn is being stubborn about Takkarash minting at me. "I don't want to just give you ridiculous amounts of money." "I am a grown-ass woman and I say I want to have some fun. You do not get to take it away from me.")
(7/29/2015 9:34:29 PM) Evenstar: 'how do you tell the difference between natural charisma and magic'
(7/29/2015 9:34:30 PM) Link: I mean, okay, but ... like, it is doable to just "skip forward in time" or something simar
(7/29/2015 9:34:34 PM) Link: Sonata - pff
(7/29/2015 9:34:39 PM) Link: Evenstar - yes
(7/29/2015 9:35:01 PM) Teceler: Andygal: did you get distracted from looking at icon for Kel or are you just thinking about it?
(7/29/2015 9:35:23 PM) Kappa: Miles has a *shit fucking ton* of natural charisma. He can convince people of some pretty amazing things. He is not utterly infallible but he's closer than most people get without literal magic being involved.
(7/29/2015 9:36:04 PM) Kappa: And it turns out he is REALLY hard-line about the line between convincing and mind-controlling
(7/29/2015 9:36:11 PM) Andygal: oh yeah, Kel the icon is fine.
(7/29/2015 9:36:32 PM) Kel: k
(7/29/2015 9:36:36 PM) Kel: thanks
(7/29/2015 9:36:44 PM) Andygal: also hugs for DL
(7/29/2015 9:36:57 PM) Kel: DL is hugged
(7/29/2015 9:37:07 PM) Link: kappabeta - oh?
(7/29/2015 9:37:12 PM) Kappa: like...
(7/29/2015 9:38:12 PM) Kappa: If this were to come up IC and ME were to explain that people with high charisma in Entelechy just kind of accidentally mind-control people as a matter of course, he would thereafter be strongly tempted to refuse to visit any world where alethics works until he verified that they didn't do the thing
(7/29/2015 9:38:26 PM) Adelene: heh
(7/29/2015 9:38:26 PM) Kappa: it gives him *such* horrors
(7/29/2015 9:38:47 PM) Link: hahah
(7/29/2015 9:38:59 PM) Link: ME would be very confused as to what the difference was
(7/29/2015 9:39:08 PM) Link: like
(7/29/2015 9:39:10 PM) Link: *really* confused
(7/29/2015 9:39:23 PM) Teceler: pfft ME
(7/29/2015 9:39:25 PM) Link: "... that's an apple. That is also an apple" confused.
(7/29/2015 9:39:33 PM) Kappa: :P
(7/29/2015 9:39:55 PM) Kel: I mean. If I ever met a Miles, they could probably convince me of things and knowing that ahead of time wouldn't give me much advantage except that if I so chose I could be mean and ignore literally everything he said? so from that aspect it is not at all different from mind control?
(7/29/2015 9:40:05 PM) Link: ^ basically
(7/29/2015 9:40:15 PM) Link: like, I'm kind of physicsist-y about things?
(7/29/2015 9:40:21 PM) Link: "If you can't tell the difference, there is no difference"
(7/29/2015 9:40:23 PM) Kappa: [miles yelling intensifies]
(7/29/2015 9:40:30 PM) Link: hahaha
(7/29/2015 9:40:49 PM) Kappa: I'm having some trouble articulating though
(7/29/2015 9:40:51 PM) Link: Like, basically, it's kind of... consequentialist?
(7/29/2015 9:40:53 PM) Sonata: it might matter whether you're /more/ able to convince people of true things than of false things?
(7/29/2015 9:41:05 PM) Link: "At the end of the day, you can convicne arbitrary people of arbitrary things."
(7/29/2015 9:41:07 PM) Link: "Be very very careful of that power."
(7/29/2015 9:41:18 PM) Kel: if you want me to stop saying things about mind control that will upset the characters in your head who are more awake than mine I can?
(7/29/2015 9:41:18 PM) Link: "Just because it's natural charisma doesn't mean you're allowed to abuse it"
(7/29/2015 9:41:23 PM) Link: is kidn of the ENtelechy point of view?
(7/29/2015 9:41:25 PM) Link: also what Kel said
(7/29/2015 9:41:41 PM) Link: Like, ultimately it's more ... the line blurs both ways?
(7/29/2015 9:41:49 PM) Link: Some mind-controlly things look acceptable
(7/29/2015 9:41:56 PM) Kappa: sdfshkdfjh
(7/29/2015 9:41:59 PM) Link: and some natural-charisma things get frowned upon as crimes?
(7/29/2015 9:42:08 PM) Link: Should I stop talking
(7/29/2015 9:42:11 PM) Link: I can stop talking
(7/29/2015 9:42:17 PM) Sonata: /ideally/ the reason persuasion is more acceptable is because it's supposed to only work if you're right
(7/29/2015 9:42:19 PM) Kappa: <3 one sec while i say a thing
(7/29/2015 9:42:20 PM) Kel: I can also stop
(7/29/2015 9:42:52 PM) Kappa: I'm not personally upset about this currently, it's just mildly frustrating that Miles has this really clear really strongly felt objection that I can't for the life of me put into words. Like, a tiny amount of frustrating. a small frog amount of frustrating
(7/29/2015 9:43:03 PM) Kel: small peep frog?
(7/29/2015 9:43:09 PM) Kappa:
i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/WORLD/americas/01/13/haiti.tiny.frogs/t1larg.frog.gi.afp.jpg this frog
(7/29/2015 9:43:15 PM) Kappa: is the amount of frustrating that it is
(7/29/2015 9:43:21 PM) Kel: eee
(7/29/2015 9:43:25 PM) Kappa: XD
(7/29/2015 9:43:27 PM) Kel: tiny
(7/29/2015 9:43:31 PM) Kappa: so small!
(7/29/2015 9:43:31 PM) Andygal: small frog!
(7/29/2015 9:43:34 PM) Sonata: oh goodness
(7/29/2015 9:43:38 PM) Evenstar: :3
(7/29/2015 9:43:40 PM) Evenstar: <3
(7/29/2015 9:43:41 PM) Sonata: you are the best at metaphors
(7/29/2015 9:43:44 PM) Kappa: <3
(7/29/2015 9:43:45 PM) Teceler: aww
(7/29/2015 9:43:49 PM) Kappa: I try.
(7/29/2015 9:43:50 PM) Kappa: XD
(7/29/2015 9:43:52 PM) Teceler: ...I bet the frustration is not adorable, though XD
(7/29/2015 9:44:02 PM) Andygal: I am sorry you are frustrated
(7/29/2015 9:44:05 PM) Evenstar: Best non-metaphorical metaphorical frustration frog ever.
(7/29/2015 9:44:24 PM) Kappa: Comparing it to the tiny adorable frog makes me giggle and is therefore helpful XD
(7/29/2015 9:44:30 PM) Kel: <3
(7/29/2015 9:44:32 PM) Kappa: and is also helpful in communicating the tininess of the frustration
(7/29/2015 9:44:46 PM) Kappa: it is so small! it can perch on the edge of a quarter like so!
(7/29/2015 9:44:58 PM) Kel: aw
(7/29/2015 9:45:03 PM) Kel: aww
(7/29/2015 9:45:09 PM) Teceler: aww
(7/29/2015 9:45:22 PM) Teceler: /tiny/ frog
(7/29/2015 9:45:29 PM) Kappa: ^^
(7/29/2015 9:45:32 PM) Kel: so small
(7/29/2015 9:45:44 PM) Sonata: persuasion/charisma, on some level, requires the cooperation of the target
(7/29/2015 9:46:02 PM) Sonata: and therefore /automatically fails/ without their consent
(7/29/2015 9:46:18 PM) Kappa: that's a piece of the miles yelling, sonata
(7/29/2015 9:46:20 PM) Teceler: ...that is, yes. People can just /not listen/
(7/29/2015 9:46:26 PM) Andygal: Yes.
(7/29/2015 9:46:38 PM) Kel: well.
(7/29/2015 9:46:39 PM) Link: .... Yeah, but, like
(7/29/2015 9:46:40 PM) Andygal: also only being able to convince people of true things does help.
(7/29/2015 9:46:44 PM) Kel: I mean they can't /always/?
(7/29/2015 9:46:45 PM) Link: Captive audiences.
(7/29/2015 9:46:53 PM) Andygal: like the truth rainbows are not really creepy.
(7/29/2015 9:46:58 PM) Teceler: and that is where things start getting creepy, link
(7/29/2015 9:47:04 PM) Link: And actually not-listening is hard, too
(7/29/2015 9:47:05 PM) Teceler: *creepy anyway,
(7/29/2015 9:47:08 PM) Kel: like, sometimes people say things that really get to you even if they aren't true?
(7/29/2015 9:47:10 PM) Link: like, there's this old psych study I keep trotting out
(7/29/2015 9:47:15 PM) Link: where people get /measurably more ruthless/
(7/29/2015 9:47:20 PM) Evenstar: Well uh, natural charisma /can/ be used to convince people of untrue things?
(7/29/2015 9:47:23 PM) Link: if you /put a briefcase in the room/
(7/29/2015 9:47:24 PM) Link: Like
(7/29/2015 9:47:27 PM) Link: seriously, that's all it takes.
(7/29/2015 9:47:31 PM) Link: to make people /noticeably more ruthless/
(7/29/2015 9:47:36 PM) Link: "Not listening" is very very hard
(7/29/2015 9:47:50 PM) Link: (And that's before we get into ENtelechy 'convince your ears to betray you' stuff)
(7/29/2015 9:48:17 PM) Evenstar: ... convince your ears to betray you
(7/29/2015 9:48:23 PM) Andygal: ....
(7/29/2015 9:48:24 PM) Evenstar: ... Yeah, okay, that happens sometimes.
(7/29/2015 9:48:25 PM) Kel: like. the thing he did in Mirror Dance with that one {spoiler} person
(7/29/2015 9:48:38 PM) Kappa: kel i don't actually know what you're talking about
(7/29/2015 9:48:41 PM) Kel: it was an ultimately good thing
(7/29/2015 9:48:43 PM) Kel: should I PM?
(7/29/2015 9:48:46 PM) Kappa: yes
(7/29/2015 9:48:53 PM) Teceler: #spoilers
(7/29/2015 9:48:54 PM) Teceler: is a thing
(7/29/2015 9:49:07 PM) Teceler: that exists for exactly this purpose :P
(7/29/2015 9:49:07 PM) Kappa: i'm too tired to make the minimal effort required to join another chat
(7/29/2015 9:49:12 PM) Teceler: pfft
(7/29/2015 9:49:14 PM) Teceler: okay
(7/29/2015 9:49:14 PM) Link: haha
(7/29/2015 9:49:16 PM) Link: but yeah, like
(7/29/2015 9:49:27 PM) Link: it's totally possible to say things
(7/29/2015 9:49:30 PM) Adelene: kappa: copy/paste: /join #spoilers
(7/29/2015 9:49:30 PM) Link: Contessa style
(7/29/2015 9:49:34 PM) Link: and even if you're not-listening
(7/29/2015 9:49:38 PM) Link: you can't /really/ not-listen?
(7/29/2015 9:49:45 PM) Teceler: linkhyrule5: I mean, Contessa is also that thing
(7/29/2015 9:49:50 PM) Teceler: Contessa is /way/ over the blurry line
(7/29/2015 9:49:55 PM) Link: I mean, is she?
(7/29/2015 9:49:59 PM) Kappa: my clipboard is full of the thing I keep trying to say about Miles's yelling
(7/29/2015 9:50:00 PM) Link: Contessa does absolutely nothing a normal human can't do
(7/29/2015 9:50:05 PM) Link: she just /knows exactly what to do/
(7/29/2015 9:50:27 PM) Teceler: normal humans cannot target things that perfectly
(7/29/2015 9:50:39 PM) Teceler: and yes, link, she is way way over the blurry line because of that
(7/29/2015 9:50:47 PM) Link: yes, but still - like, it's not like she's not using basilisk hacks
(7/29/2015 9:50:49 PM) Link: er
(7/29/2015 9:50:53 PM) Link: she's not using basilisk hacks
(7/29/2015 9:50:55 PM) Teceler: that kind of perfect knowledge about people is hax
(7/29/2015 9:50:56 PM) Teceler: pfft
(7/29/2015 9:50:59 PM) Andygal: Strong AI are definitely over the blurry line.
(7/29/2015 9:51:01 PM) Sonata: kappa, please just paste
(7/29/2015 9:51:07 PM) Kappa: ??????????
(7/29/2015 9:51:14 PM) Link: .... yes and no? Like, she could also justb e your bestest best friend?
(7/29/2015 9:51:15 PM) Teceler: I'm not saying she's into 'obviously mindcontrol' territory
(7/29/2015 9:51:19 PM) Sonata: my clipboard is full of the thing I keep trying to say about Miles's yelling
(7/29/2015 9:51:26 PM) Sonata: I want to see the thing
(7/29/2015 9:51:32 PM) Teceler: but she's definitely into 'very maybe mindcontrol territory'
(7/29/2015 9:51:36 PM) Sonata: (also who is contessa)
(7/29/2015 9:51:41 PM) Kappa: It is a half-finished sentence that I keep typing a little bit of and then having to cut it for a minute to respond to something somebody says
(7/29/2015 9:51:45 PM) Kel: she is a worm character
(7/29/2015 9:51:48 PM) Kel: sorry
(7/29/2015 9:51:49 PM) Kappa: it doesn't really say very much yet
(7/29/2015 9:51:59 PM) Teceler: who can tell the perfect way to achieve any goal she wants
(7/29/2015 9:52:04 PM) Evenstar: She has the power of 'see the necessary steps to achieve goal X'
(7/29/2015 9:52:07 PM) Teceler: (well, except there are some things that block her)
(7/29/2015 9:52:08 PM) Teceler: but, yeah
(7/29/2015 9:52:15 PM) Kel: (here is a video of a small frog squeaking
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QPR6xhiwhw)(7/29/2015 9:52:21 PM) Evenstar: AKA 'Path to Victory'
(7/29/2015 9:52:39 PM) Evenstar: It is really powerful.
(7/29/2015 9:52:51 PM) Kel: (in case that helps with things? It is cute and I was reminded by other small frog)
(7/29/2015 9:52:55 PM) Evenstar: Like, she could point that at 'disassemble the OTC' and it would give her a step-by-step plan
(7/29/2015 9:52:59 PM) Evenstar: and the plan would /work/,
(7/29/2015 9:53:09 PM) Evenstar: because her power guarantees it.
(7/29/2015 9:53:22 PM) Teceler: it might be possible for the OTC to set up wards such that she can't get a result?
(7/29/2015 9:53:26 PM) Teceler: but, yeah
(7/29/2015 9:53:28 PM) Evenstar: (Minus kryptonite-equivalent)
(7/29/2015 9:53:33 PM) Adelene: Kappa is what you are trying to say 'everybody please stop talking about the tangent here'?
(7/29/2015 9:53:34 PM) Andygal: that is completely hax.
(7/29/2015 9:53:49 PM) Evenstar: It /is/
(7/29/2015 9:53:54 PM) Teceler: yup
(7/29/2015 9:54:02 PM) Kappa: not quite, ade. i am making slow progress on saying this thing while everyone talks about contessa and nobody requires my input much
(7/29/2015 9:54:11 PM) Teceler: pfft
(7/29/2015 9:54:18 PM) Andygal: it is repulsively digusting hax
(7/29/2015 9:54:20 PM) Evenstar: It is more hax than Intellectus in some ways.
(7/29/2015 9:54:34 PM) Teceler: Intellectus?
(7/29/2015 9:54:46 PM) Evenstar: (Intellectus is from the Dresden files, it's 'get a true and complete answer to any question you ask')
(7/29/2015 9:54:47 PM) Link: Dresden
(7/29/2015 9:54:49 PM) Teceler: ah
(7/29/2015 9:55:01 PM) Link: though Intellectus is usually pretty limited
(7/29/2015 9:55:03 PM) Teceler: ...yeah that is hax too
(7/29/2015 9:55:03 PM) Andygal: usually limited to a certain place or subjet matter.
(7/29/2015 9:55:08 PM) Evenstar: (Limitation being that you have to /ask the right questions/)
(7/29/2015 9:55:16 PM) Evenstar: (Well, unless you are an angel.)
(7/29/2015 9:55:24 PM) Link: ha
(7/29/2015 9:55:27 PM) Evenstar: (But angels are hax.)
(7/29/2015 9:55:47 PM) Kel: (and do not exist)
(7/29/2015 9:55:51 PM) Evenstar: (Even angels have that limit though.)
(7/29/2015 9:55:52 PM) Teceler: (pfft)
(7/29/2015 9:55:55 PM) Evenstar: Kel: Uriel.
(7/29/2015 9:55:58 PM) Andygal: they exist in the Dresden files
(7/29/2015 9:56:24 PM) Link: it's a NV joke
(7/29/2015 9:56:30 PM) Link: angels do not exist in Night Vale
(7/29/2015 9:56:32 PM) Link: this is definitely a true statement
(7/29/2015 9:56:36 PM) Link: and not propaganda at all
(7/29/2015 9:56:40 PM) Kel: of course not
(7/29/2015 9:56:42 PM) Andygal: except they actually do.
(7/29/2015 9:56:43 PM) Evenstar: (... I can totally see Uriel blending in well in Night Vale)
(7/29/2015 9:56:44 PM) Kel: that would be ridiculous
(7/29/2015 9:57:08 PM) Kel: writing question
(7/29/2015 9:57:22 PM) Sonata: (Demons, fairies, and the fluffy ones.)
(7/29/2015 9:57:24 PM) Kel: how much is it okay to say "person does X, looking [emotion]?"
(7/29/2015 9:57:27 PM) Kel: XD
(7/29/2015 9:57:28 PM) Kel: <3
(7/29/2015 9:57:50 PM) Andygal: Kel: seems OK to me?
(7/29/2015 9:58:10 PM) Kappa: kel it is okay to say that as many times as you feel moved to, if that is what you want to convey and you are not struck by divine inspiration for a more unique phrasing
(7/29/2015 9:58:24 PM) Teceler: pfft
(7/29/2015 10:00:31 PM) Evenstar left the room (quit: Quit:
www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client).
(7/29/2015 10:01:08 PM) Kel: ok
(7/29/2015 10:01:52 PM) Kappa: okay the miles yelling in my clipboard is now three paragraphs long and i have numbered each of them at the end so you can tell for sure if they cut off, here they are
(7/29/2015 10:01:54 PM) Kappa: the thing about miles's yelling: for Miles it's like... you can't *separate* the process from the result, for him? Like he will pull all kinds of dodgy shit and lie and cheat and kill if he's doing something important enough to judge that it's worth it (see also: the Dagoola mission, "You don't have any inhibitions, do you?" "Not in combat.") but he actually *does* have inhibitions on many subjects and apparently mind control is one of
(7/29/2015 10:01:54 PM) Kappa: Because like. The WAY that Miles convinces people of things. When he's really on his game, when he's doing things like found the Dendarii, when he is making lies come true through sheer force of personality, he is working *for* not *against* the people he's charisma-ing at. Like. Sometimes that for-not-against is defined in a way that weasels in his favour a bit? But ultimately he HAS to have their interests in mind (2)
(7/29/2015 10:01:57 PM) Kappa: When he is *merely lying* he does not get nearly such divine results as when he is *Milesing* at people and *Milesing* in this sense absolutely requires that he consider the other person and who they are and what they want and *how he can help them* even if "helping" them might consist in some instances mostly of "convincing them not to kill people he doesn't want killed" etc (3)
(7/29/2015 10:02:02 PM) Teceler: one is cut off
(7/29/2015 10:02:16 PM) Kappa: show me cut off part?
(7/29/2015 10:02:24 PM) Teceler: 'apparently mind control is one of '
(7/29/2015 10:02:32 PM) Kappa: >> apparently mind control is one of them (1)
(7/29/2015 10:02:47 PM) Teceler: pfft
(7/29/2015 10:02:52 PM) Teceler: that was not very much cut off
(7/29/2015 10:03:15 PM) Kappa: I'm pretty sure I have not wholly articulated Miles's yelling but I think I've at least gestured vaguely in its direction sufficiently clearly that somebody else might conceivably have figured out what I'm talking about
(7/29/2015 10:03:24 PM) Adelene: I get it. *pokes words*
(7/29/2015 10:03:39 PM) Kappa: and kel the example you brought up is *exactly* an example of him Milesing in the approved manner
(7/29/2015 10:03:41 PM) Teceler: ...like. The thing that was going on at Dagoola before he got there. That is kind of the thing where we hit mind-control mundanely?
(7/29/2015 10:03:49 PM) Adelene: He's not changing *them*, in the sense of, like, them as them. He's more just getting all the bits pointed in the right direction?
(7/29/2015 10:03:58 PM) Kappa: Sort of, Ade?
(7/29/2015 10:04:25 PM) Kel: hm
(7/29/2015 10:04:33 PM) Adelene: For 'all the bits' defined as, like, less even actually the person he's Milesing and more, like, things around them, their perceptions of those things, that kind of thing.
(7/29/2015 10:04:34 PM) Kel: like, yes he is working /for/ them
(7/29/2015 10:04:56 PM) Kel: but like. I don't want people changing my mind for what /they/ think is *for* me?
(7/29/2015 10:05:28 PM) Andygal: it helps that Miles is really good at this.
(7/29/2015 10:05:29 PM) Adelene: There are ways of doing that thing such that if you're wrong about what makes someone tick it will just fail.
(7/29/2015 10:05:34 PM) Kappa: there's for and then there's for
(7/29/2015 10:05:40 PM) Kappa: and yes what ade said
(7/29/2015 10:05:47 PM) Andygal: at figuring out a way that everyone can win.
(7/29/2015 10:06:00 PM) Andygal: unless they are assholes
(7/29/2015 10:06:05 PM) Sonata: thing is, because he's an Author Designated Hero, he /just doesn't/ make Extremely Serious Moral Errors, metacausally.
(7/29/2015 10:06:15 PM) Kappa: I mean.
(7/29/2015 10:06:20 PM) Kappa: sonata have you read canon
(7/29/2015 10:06:22 PM) Sonata: this is not a feature that a real person can ever have.
(7/29/2015 10:06:23 PM) Adelene: heh
(7/29/2015 10:06:23 PM) Sonata: no
(7/29/2015 10:06:27 PM) Sonata: I probalby should
(7/29/2015 10:06:48 PM) Kappa: Miles fucks some stuff up pretty bad at various points in his life.
(7/29/2015 10:06:50 PM) Kel: okay. I will take your word for that about it not working if wrong about how people tick
(7/29/2015 10:06:51 PM) Teceler: yeah
(7/29/2015 10:06:52 PM) Sonata: but I should also go to bed because early start tomorrow.
(7/29/2015 10:06:54 PM) Kappa: He tries but does not always succeed.
(7/29/2015 10:06:55 PM) Kel: good night
(7/29/2015 10:06:57 PM) Kel: sleep well
(7/29/2015 10:07:00 PM) Adelene: sleep well
(7/29/2015 10:07:02 PM) Teceler: sleep well Sonata
(7/29/2015 10:07:11 PM) Andygal: night Sonata
(7/29/2015 10:07:17 PM) Adelene: Verdancy has not been on all day, huh.
(7/29/2015 10:07:17 PM) Sonata: Night all.
(7/29/2015 10:07:21 PM) Sonata left the room (quit: Quit: Leaving).
(7/29/2015 10:07:45 PM) Kel: but like. I worry about people doing Social to get me to want to do things that /they/ think are good for me that /I/ disagree with?
(7/29/2015 10:07:50 PM) Kappa: continued thoughts on miles's yelling: And also a big part of it is - he would never "just skip to the end" because if he just skips to the end he misses the part where he *does* it and the part where he does it is, like. important
(7/29/2015 10:07:58 PM) Teceler: Adelene: Verdancy seems to have been online? But not in chat?
(7/29/2015 10:08:08 PM) Adelene: ah, hm.
(7/29/2015 10:08:19 PM) Teceler: (the post has been getting edited)
(7/29/2015 10:08:29 PM) Adelene: *looks*
(7/29/2015 10:09:34 PM) Adelene: Kel: Again, if someone is being the right kinds of careful they can social you to do things that you think are good for you without the risk of you doing things that you disagree with. It's not even all that hard, if the person is actually trying.
(7/29/2015 10:09:45 PM) Kappa: Kel, the thing that you worry about people doing is a thing that Miles is pretty darn set on avoiding
(7/29/2015 10:09:49 PM) Kappa: and, yes, what ade said
(7/29/2015 10:09:59 PM) Link: yeah, but like
(7/29/2015 10:10:03 PM) Link: that's a /usage/ thing?
(7/29/2015 10:10:08 PM) Link: that doesn'et make the /tool/ any more moral/safer/etc
(7/29/2015 10:10:20 PM) Link: that just means "don't put the mind control thin the hands of aterrible people"
(7/29/2015 10:10:20 PM) Adelene: it really really does
(7/29/2015 10:10:26 PM) Adelene: they are in fact different tools
(7/29/2015 10:11:06 PM) Adelene: like, not /drastically/ different? you could use a screwdriver as an awl, they're similar enough
(7/29/2015 10:11:20 PM) Link: I guess, but like, at the end of the day they do the same thing
(7/29/2015 10:11:23 PM) Kel: but the differnet tools aren't detectably different from the recieiving end?
(7/29/2015 10:11:25 PM) Adelene: but they are in fact different tools and trying to use one for the other's purpose will work poorly if at all.
(7/29/2015 10:11:25 PM) Link: you need to be very careful with both
(7/29/2015 10:11:36 PM) Link: I dunno?
(7/29/2015 10:11:53 PM) Kappa: What precisely are the tools being contrasted here I feel like different people might be imagining different sets
(7/29/2015 10:12:03 PM) Kel: like. I can tell I am being Socialed but not whether it is with good intent?
(7/29/2015 10:12:36 PM) Adelene: Like
(7/29/2015 10:12:47 PM) Adelene: pointing out that X is an option is pretty darn safe
(7/29/2015 10:13:01 PM) Andygal: I think part of reason Miles is so Miles is that he is good at conveying good intent?
(7/29/2015 10:13:14 PM) Adelene: not /completely/ safe, you can kill someone who's suicidal by pointing out that a method is available
(7/29/2015 10:13:44 PM) Adelene: but even doing that exact thing in any other circumstance won't have that effect
(7/29/2015 10:13:46 PM) Link: Yeah, but like - you can be good at lying about good intent
(7/29/2015 10:13:48 PM) Link: is the thing
(7/29/2015 10:14:19 PM) Andygal: but that's kind of a different thing then the thing Miles does, I think?
(7/29/2015 10:14:24 PM) Kappa: I feel like I have a Relevant Anecdote to offer here maybe, regarding the difference between ~Milesing~ and [hostile-or-fallible? social]
(7/29/2015 10:14:26 PM) Teceler: linkhyrule5: but then you get different results long-term, because the person was lying bout having good intent
(7/29/2015 10:14:26 PM) Adelene: Lying about intent doesn't make 'pointing out options' work better or worse.
(7/29/2015 10:14:46 PM) Adelene: If it's /just/ pointing out options, and not saying 'you should' about any of them.
(7/29/2015 10:15:04 PM) Kel: pointing out an option sorta has the implication of you should though?
(7/29/2015 10:15:08 PM) Teceler: it is pretty damn easy to imply 'you should' with that, though, Adelene
(7/29/2015 10:15:32 PM) Teceler: although not so much if you point out a bunch
(7/29/2015 10:15:40 PM) Evenstar entered the room.
(7/29/2015 10:15:45 PM) Kel: hi
(7/29/2015 10:15:50 PM) Teceler: hello Evenstar
(7/29/2015 10:15:52 PM) Evenstar: (pfft, Erocentrism)
(7/29/2015 10:15:55 PM) Evenstar: Hi Teceler!
(7/29/2015 10:16:08 PM) Evenstar: (The Joker has arrived)
(7/29/2015 10:16:18 PM) Kel: ?
(7/29/2015 10:16:21 PM) Kappa: erocentrism is not a joker but yes XD
(7/29/2015 10:16:25 PM) Evenstar: (Only in a different configuration)
(7/29/2015 10:16:29 PM) Kappa: may i relate my Relevant Anecdote
(7/29/2015 10:16:29 PM) Adelene: *nod* And there are ways of establishing your own fallability/humility/nonhostilityishness (the thing where you won't attack or judge someone for not doing a thing you've suggested) that can make that even safer.
(7/29/2015 10:16:32 PM) Teceler: I should have Tyche poke the OTC at some point, but I have the excuse of zir currently be very busy
(7/29/2015 10:16:37 PM) Andygal: kappabeta: go ahead
(7/29/2015 10:16:39 PM) Teceler: kappabeta: go for it?
(7/29/2015 10:16:54 PM) Link: I mean, yes
(7/29/2015 10:16:57 PM) Adelene: *nods*
(7/29/2015 10:17:04 PM) Link: but all of this sounds like "ways to use Ludicrous Charisma in a moral way?"
(7/29/2015 10:17:17 PM) Teceler: not exactly?
(7/29/2015 10:17:23 PM) Evenstar: .... ugh
(7/29/2015 10:17:30 PM) Teceler: Evenstar: hm?
(7/29/2015 10:17:32 PM) Kel: sorry
(7/29/2015 10:17:47 PM) Teceler: ...does anyone want this discussion to take place in, say, #offtopic?
(7/29/2015 10:17:50 PM) Link: kappabeta - haave fun with the anedote?
(7/29/2015 10:17:54 PM) Evenstar: Erocentrism's username (as opposed to her screen name) is 'rousing'
(7/29/2015 10:17:57 PM) Link: ...
(7/29/2015 10:18:01 PM) ***Link headdesks
(7/29/2015 10:18:03 PM) Evenstar: Which makes her 'a rousing'
(7/29/2015 10:18:10 PM) Adelene: pfft
(7/29/2015 10:18:11 PM) Evenstar: *headdesks*
(7/29/2015 10:18:16 PM) Andygal: pffffffft
(7/29/2015 10:18:18 PM) Kel: heh
(7/29/2015 10:18:19 PM) Link: where's the a come from?
(7/29/2015 10:18:23 PM) Adelene: @
(7/29/2015 10:18:39 PM) Link: ah
(7/29/2015 10:20:09 PM) ***Adelene wonders what a chunk of ocean is going to do with a treadstone plane.
(7/29/2015 10:21:41 PM) Link: kappabeta - I did not mean that the way it sounded >.>
(7/29/2015 10:21:50 PM) ***Link should not social when tired
(7/29/2015 10:22:27 PM) Link: I meant "I would have fun listening to the anecdote/ please enjoy telling your anecdote" or something similar
(7/29/2015 10:22:39 PM) Evenstar: werewater implies she's only water sometimes
(7/29/2015 10:22:50 PM) PDVanished is now known as PDV
(7/29/2015 10:22:51 PM) Kappa: <3 okay good, thank you for clarifying, link XD
(7/29/2015 10:22:51 PM) Adelene: point.
(7/29/2015 10:22:53 PM) Evenstar: (well, only 100% water sometimes)
(7/29/2015 10:22:59 PM) Adelene: heh.
(7/29/2015 10:23:15 PM) ***PDV requests kappa's anecdote
(7/29/2015 10:23:27 PM) PDV: (also hi)
(7/29/2015 10:23:28 PM) Adelene: anecdote_votes ++;
(7/29/2015 10:23:29 PM) ***Evenstar is now thinking about Syrio Forel
(7/29/2015 10:23:32 PM) Teceler: hello pdv
(7/29/2015 10:23:39 PM) Evenstar: +++
(7/29/2015 10:23:55 PM) Link: ++++
(7/29/2015 10:23:55 PM) PDV: error no operator "+++"
(7/29/2015 10:23:56 PM) Kappa: This one time when I was in high school I really REALLY wanted to get out of a particular teacher's English class, because this teacher and I did not get along at all and being in her class was terrible and oh my god. So I went to talk to the principal with that as my goal, and suggested that I could take the equivalent class in summer school before the start of the next year.
(7/29/2015 10:23:56 PM) Kappa: Somehow, the principal managed to talk me into taking a *completely different class* in summer school and getting out of *that* one the next year instead.
(7/29/2015 10:23:56 PM) Kappa: I have no idea why she was dead set on me staying in English, but she managed to first get me to come up with noncentral reasons why it would be good for me to get out of that English class, then railroad me into agreeing that these secondary purposes would be much better served by getting out of Canadian History instead, and therefore I should totally do that, now sign here.
(7/29/2015 10:23:59 PM) Kappa: And like, you can tell just by looking at the *results* that this was exactly the kind of social Miles does NOT do. I went in wanting something and came out with something else that I didn't want, hadn't asked for, and that didn't do me any good at all in fulfilling my original purpose.
(7/29/2015 10:25:25 PM) Kappa: (Luckily for my sanity, iirc that teacher wasn't teaching English the following year anyway, so in the end it was all just a wacky happenstance without much actual positive or negative effect on my life.)
(7/29/2015 10:25:28 PM) ***Andygal hugs kappabeta
(7/29/2015 10:25:39 PM) Teceler: [hugs if wanted]
(7/29/2015 10:25:44 PM) Kappa: thank you for hugs <3
(7/29/2015 10:25:59 PM) Link: PDV - pfff
(7/29/2015 10:26:00 PM) Evenstar: (... I wonder if the teacher was teaching Canadian History the next year?)
(7/29/2015 10:26:03 PM) Link: kappabeta - hugs
(7/29/2015 10:26:07 PM) Kappa: she was not, Evenstar.
(7/29/2015 10:26:15 PM) Evenstar: [Hugs]
(7/29/2015 10:26:30 PM) Evenstar: (Terrible teachers suck)
(7/29/2015 10:26:56 PM) Kel: they do
(7/29/2015 10:27:12 PM) Kel: [hugs iff wanted]
(7/29/2015 10:27:48 PM) Teceler: yeah, that is a very unpleasant thing
(7/29/2015 10:28:38 PM) Kel: I have a thought about this but can not if it would be upsetting
(7/29/2015 10:28:59 PM) Kappa: i mean, i can't tell whether it would be upsetting just from knowing a thought exists
(7/29/2015 10:29:00 PM) Kappa: XD <3
(7/29/2015 10:29:09 PM) Kel: ah
(7/29/2015 10:29:19 PM) Kel: it is a negative thought about being socialed by Miles?
(7/29/2015 10:29:56 PM) Link: I mean, like - that is not necessarily true, about Miles?
(7/29/2015 10:30:01 PM) Link: People come in going "I want to kill the intruders"
(7/29/2015 10:30:09 PM) Link: and leave going "I want to be part of his mercenary fleet"
(7/29/2015 10:30:09 PM) Kappa: you can say it if you want i guess?
(7/29/2015 10:30:23 PM) Kappa: link, ehh, it's a thing about different levels?
(7/29/2015 10:30:37 PM) Kel: but like. immediately and internally I don't think I would feel /different/ talking to Miles than talking to teachers/peers like that?
(7/29/2015 10:31:08 PM) Adelene: 'I want to kill the intruders' was fulfilling a less central set of desires, for them personally as individuals, than 'I want to be part of his mercenary fleet' did.
(7/29/2015 10:31:19 PM) Kappa: yes exactly ade
(7/29/2015 10:31:26 PM) Kel: like. someone is making Convincing arguments and I am Agreeing with them and am so glad that someone else figured out a way to help me with what I /really/ wanted
(7/29/2015 10:31:29 PM) Andygal: well joining Miles's mercenary fleet worked out pretty well for them.
(7/29/2015 10:31:56 PM) PDV: I'm with Kel about this
(7/29/2015 10:32:13 PM) PDV: I do not think I would actually enjoy being Milesed at
(7/29/2015 10:32:18 PM) PDV: even in retrospect
(7/29/2015 10:32:23 PM) Adelene: If you think of them as 'these random merc npcs' you will miss that about what happened, but, like, they *aren't* random merc npcs, and more to the point Miles isn't going to treat them as random merc npcs, he's going to treat them as people.
(7/29/2015 10:32:36 PM) Kappa: yes *exactly* ade
(7/29/2015 10:33:01 PM) Teceler: like, 'I want to kill the intruders' is a response to a specific thing, it is not their overriding goal
(7/29/2015 10:33:01 PM) PDV: I don't really see where that matters
(7/29/2015 10:33:08 PM) Adelene: (If they had really truly wanted to kill the intruders, Miles would have been /so screwed/.)
(7/29/2015 10:33:43 PM) Andygal: they wanted to kill the intruders because somebody else told them to do it, not because it was their personal ambition in life.
(7/29/2015 10:33:48 PM) Adelene: mmhmm
(7/29/2015 10:33:48 PM) Teceler: ...are we talking about a specific thing here? I think I might have missed that?
(7/29/2015 10:34:01 PM) Adelene: we are
(7/29/2015 10:34:05 PM) Link: Okay, but like, Idon't think Miles would disapprove of like
(7/29/2015 10:34:12 PM) Teceler: Adelene: pm me with it?
(7/29/2015 10:34:14 PM) Link: "My personal goal in life is to get revenge on Miles Bloody Vorkosigan"
(7/29/2015 10:34:15 PM) Adelene: we're talking about when Miles stole his mercenary fleet
(7/29/2015 10:34:21 PM) Teceler: ah
(7/29/2015 10:34:22 PM) Link: and talking him out of that?
(7/29/2015 10:34:26 PM) Teceler: yeah, I got that
(7/29/2015 10:34:31 PM) Link: Like, if he could have social'd what's his face
(7/29/2015 10:34:36 PM) Link: the idiot who cloned Mark
(7/29/2015 10:34:39 PM) Teceler: but a specific part of
(7/29/2015 10:34:39 PM) Kel: Galen
(7/29/2015 10:34:41 PM) Kappa: Miles has MET people whose personal goal in life was to get revenge on him
(7/29/2015 10:34:43 PM) Teceler: Galen
(7/29/2015 10:34:50 PM) Teceler: like
(7/29/2015 10:34:52 PM) Kappa: and you know what? he COULDN'T TALK THEM OUT OF IT
(7/29/2015 10:34:55 PM) Teceler: Miles could /not/ have socialed them
(7/29/2015 10:34:57 PM) Kappa: XD
(7/29/2015 10:35:02 PM) Teceler: *him
(7/29/2015 10:35:02 PM) PDV: this is reminding me of a thing from With This Ring, except that he does it by accident and would probably be profoundly creeped out if he knew what was happening
(7/29/2015 10:35:16 PM) Link: I mean, okay
(7/29/2015 10:35:19 PM) Link: but like
(7/29/2015 10:35:19 PM) Kappa: He TRIED his DAMNEDEST to talk Galen out of it
(7/29/2015 10:35:29 PM) Kappa: and it *didn't work* because Galen *wasn't interested*
(7/29/2015 10:35:32 PM) Link: that's partially because he was personally involved?
(7/29/2015 10:35:44 PM) Link: "My personal goal in life is to get revenge on Random Person Here"
(7/29/2015 10:36:01 PM) PDV: I think it didn't work because there was *literally nothing Galen wanted except revenge and personal glory*
(7/29/2015 10:36:02 PM) Kappa: Yeah, it's not that, really.
(7/29/2015 10:36:08 PM) Teceler: Galeni actually got closer, honestly
(7/29/2015 10:36:15 PM) Kappa: yes, exactly, PDV.
(7/29/2015 10:36:31 PM) Teceler: but like, that was not a thing that worked
(7/29/2015 10:36:36 PM) Teceler: ...and, um spoilers, oops
(7/29/2015 10:36:41 PM) Kappa: Galeni was a weapon Miles was wielding in that encounter, anyway XD
(7/29/2015 10:36:45 PM) Andygal: I mean he could probably talk somebody out of wanting to get revenge on him if there was somebody else that was more responsible for whatever he wanted to get revenge on him for.
(7/29/2015 10:36:45 PM) Teceler: XD
(7/29/2015 10:36:50 PM) Kappa: wait is there anyone here who hasn't read those effulgence threads
(7/29/2015 10:37:01 PM) Teceler: I don't think you're giving Galeni /quite/ enough credit there
(7/29/2015 10:37:10 PM) Teceler: but okay
(7/29/2015 10:37:13 PM) Evenstar: *raises hand*
(7/29/2015 10:37:13 PM) PDV: That doesn't make it less creepy, though. Because any non-hellbent person could be Milesed into basically anything
(7/29/2015 10:37:20 PM) ***Evenstar doesn't care though.
(7/29/2015 10:37:20 PM) Kel: yeah
(7/29/2015 10:37:31 PM) Kel: Okay, what about that one person who sold Miles the Jumpship
(7/29/2015 10:37:37 PM) Adelene: PDV: No? Only things that get them what they already want?
(7/29/2015 10:37:39 PM) Kel: The RG something Color something
(7/29/2015 10:37:44 PM) Link: Yeah, but that just means
(7/29/2015 10:37:54 PM) PDV: Like, if you have two overriding drives and also some minor goals, Miles can get you to think those minor goals are way more important
(7/29/2015 10:37:54 PM) Kel: there was a very real chance that he wasn't going to get paid back
(7/29/2015 10:37:57 PM) Link: "sort through people's utility systems to find something vaguely in the right direction"
(7/29/2015 10:37:59 PM) Kappa: I mean, like, that's not to say that he waasn't acting on his own/wasn't competent or whatever, but Miles did specifically bring Galeni specifically in order to use him as a psychological weapon against his dad, that's a thing
(7/29/2015 10:38:03 PM) Evenstar: I would be impressed if Isabella could be effectively Milesed into some things.
(7/29/2015 10:38:08 PM) Link: "make that seem ludicrously important"
(7/29/2015 10:38:11 PM) Kappa: PDV I have been trying to say that doing that thing is precisely what Miles doesn't.
(7/29/2015 10:38:20 PM) Teceler: Kel: but, like, Miles intended that that thing
(7/29/2015 10:38:20 PM) Adelene: Link, Miles does not do that thing. :P
(7/29/2015 10:38:26 PM) Link: Miles /doesn't/
(7/29/2015 10:38:26 PM) PDV: from the outside you can't tell the difference
(7/29/2015 10:38:32 PM) Kel: yeah
(7/29/2015 10:38:33 PM) Link: that's not the same as /couldn't/, and also what PDV said
(7/29/2015 10:38:40 PM) Link: like, the question here is about the morality of the /tool/
(7/29/2015 10:38:43 PM) Link: and where the line is
(7/29/2015 10:38:48 PM) Teceler: like
(7/29/2015 10:38:50 PM) Link: not about the morality of the person using it
(7/29/2015 10:38:50 PM) Adelene: The tools Miles uses do not do that thing. :P
(7/29/2015 10:38:54 PM) PDV: it doesn't feel different to have that done to you, than to just have mind control persuasion applied
(7/29/2015 10:39:04 PM) Teceler: the modality Miles uses
(7/29/2015 10:39:06 PM) PDV: the tools Miles uses can do that thing if he wants them to
(7/29/2015 10:39:23 PM) Evenstar: I'm going to be the pedant and say that /acts/ don't have morality, /actions/ do.
(7/29/2015 10:39:35 PM) Evenstar: Like, 'convincing someone' is a scary tool
(7/29/2015 10:39:39 PM) Teceler: like, say maybe that Miles has a tool and uses a certain mode of it that doesn't do that thing?
(7/29/2015 10:39:44 PM) Evenstar: but it is not inherently more evil than an atom bomb
(7/29/2015 10:39:52 PM) Kel: Like, the Jump Ship Seller did not want to get a pile of glowing land, but he would have if Miles had been slightly less lucky
(7/29/2015 10:39:55 PM) Evenstar: nor is an atom bomb itself inherently evil
(7/29/2015 10:40:00 PM) Teceler: I think part of our problem here is where are arguing over the definition of 'tool'
(7/29/2015 10:40:24 PM) Teceler: Kel: yeah. That is one of the ways Miles nearly seriously messed things up, there, though.
(7/29/2015 10:40:41 PM) Kel: But that was I think with the same Social things as the rest of Milesing
(7/29/2015 10:40:45 PM) Kel: I think?
(7/29/2015 10:40:50 PM) PDV: I do not think it is possible to be as good at useful persuasion as Miles is without also have the capability to do harmful persuasion
(7/29/2015 10:41:10 PM) Kel: And also all the people he lied to to get his ship to actually be allowed to leave
(7/29/2015 10:41:17 PM) Adelene: 'persuasion' isn't all one thing
(7/29/2015 10:41:22 PM) PDV: and that you actually need to have the understanding of the harmful persuasion to do the useful kind
(7/29/2015 10:41:44 PM) Adelene: I mean, like
(7/29/2015 10:41:54 PM) Adelene: lots of people do want things that would hurt them?
(7/29/2015 10:42:10 PM) Adelene: Miles can totally talk them into aiming for those goals, sure
(7/29/2015 10:42:36 PM) PDV: Basically, to know how someone ticks well enough to Miles at them, you have to understand how they have been and could be persuaded into aiming for less important goals
(7/29/2015 10:42:39 PM) Adelene: Or aiming for not-necessarily-harmful goals in harmful or dangerous ways, that happens.
(7/29/2015 10:42:47 PM) Kel: ... I will read the logs later
(7/29/2015 10:42:49 PM) Kel left the room (Leaving).
(7/29/2015 10:42:52 PM) Adelene: But he's still limited by what your goals /are/.
(7/29/2015 10:43:06 PM) Link: but I mean, there's also the matter of /time/?
(7/29/2015 10:43:08 PM) PDV: that's not much of a limitation for most possible people
(7/29/2015 10:43:15 PM) Kappa: time??
(7/29/2015 10:43:22 PM) Link: given enough time you can really twist a goal
(7/29/2015 10:43:27 PM) Link: with small incremental steps
(7/29/2015 10:43:40 PM) Andygal: PDV: I think he often convinces people to abandon short term goals in favour of long term goals tho?
(7/29/2015 10:43:52 PM) Adelene: Given the right socialing toolset. That toolset is not the one that Miles has though :P
(7/29/2015 10:44:00 PM) Adelene: (@link)
(7/29/2015 10:44:20 PM) PDV: Andygal: yes, but also the other way around, less of the time but some of it
(7/29/2015 10:45:20 PM) Adelene: Link: Like, if anyone was going to be vulnerable to that, Ivan would be, and Ivan hasn't been interfered with in that way at /all/.
(7/29/2015 10:45:42 PM) Link: ?
(7/29/2015 10:45:47 PM) Link: Well yes
(7/29/2015 10:45:49 PM) PDV: Different way to say my concern: To Miles at someone, you need to understand what motivates them really, really well. If you understand them that well, you understand them well enough to AI-Box them.
(7/29/2015 10:45:51 PM) Link: but that's becaues Miles is _moral_
(7/29/2015 10:45:58 PM) Link: PDV - yes, exactly
(7/29/2015 10:46:28 PM) PDV: And Miles *doesn't*, but I can't believe he could do what he does without having the *ability to do so*
(7/29/2015 10:46:39 PM) Adelene: *insofar as you have the rest of the skillset to AI-box people*, which Miles doesn't.
(7/29/2015 10:47:02 PM) PDV: The rest of the skillset is 'time'
(7/29/2015 10:47:04 PM) PDV: That's it.
(7/29/2015 10:47:10 PM) Teceler: ...no?
(7/29/2015 10:47:18 PM) Adelene: Talking people into doing things they don't want to do is /different/ than talking them into doing things they want to do.
(7/29/2015 10:47:35 PM) Link: Yes, but the set of things you want to do is /very very large/
(7/29/2015 10:47:36 PM) PDV: I disagree.
(7/29/2015 10:47:44 PM) Kappa: I'm not totally sure what *precisely* the verb "AI-box" is being used to denote here
(7/29/2015 10:48:06 PM) Link: Like ultimately, that's what most of social /is/
(7/29/2015 10:48:09 PM) PDV: There is an AI in the box, your one job is to keep it contained, it convinces you to let it out. It has AI-boxed you.
(7/29/2015 10:48:20 PM) Adelene: Link: no, it's really really not
(7/29/2015 10:48:39 PM) Link: emphasizing the bits of a plan that are *things that are wanted*
(7/29/2015 10:48:45 PM) Link: and de-emphasizing the btis that aren't
(7/29/2015 10:49:07 PM) Teceler: ...no?
(7/29/2015 10:49:35 PM) Teceler: like
(7/29/2015 10:49:38 PM) Teceler: that's a thing
(7/29/2015 10:49:38 PM) Teceler: but
(7/29/2015 10:49:47 PM) Link: well, that and "you like me, do me favors"
(7/29/2015 10:49:55 PM) Link: but that goes under the same umbrella, really
(7/29/2015 10:50:06 PM) Teceler: ...?
(7/29/2015 10:50:21 PM) Kappa: for the record, if for some reason you had Miles imprisoned in a box, and for some reason it was genuinely against your deeply held interests to let him out, Miles would not get very far trying to convince you to do that.
(7/29/2015 10:50:36 PM) Link: ... that seems unlikely to me?
(7/29/2015 10:50:43 PM) ***Teceler eyes the Miles-in-a-box with concern?
(7/29/2015 10:50:51 PM) Evenstar: (I am now imagining a Miles in a cardboard box asking politely to leave)
(7/29/2015 10:50:53 PM) Link: I mean, Author Override aside
(7/29/2015 10:50:57 PM) Teceler: is he okay in there?
(7/29/2015 10:50:59 PM) Evenstar: (It is kind of adorable)
(7/29/2015 10:51:09 PM) PDV: xD
(7/29/2015 10:51:17 PM) PDV: the box is labeled 'time machine'
(7/29/2015 10:51:23 PM) Teceler: ...pfft
(7/29/2015 10:51:23 PM) Kappa: And his best avenues would lie in finding out *why* it was genuinely against your deeply held interests to let him out and then finding solutions that helped both of you.
(7/29/2015 10:51:23 PM) Andygal: ahahahaha
(7/29/2015 10:51:30 PM) Evenstar: (ohdear)
(7/29/2015 10:51:35 PM) Link: kappabeta - well yes, but like
(7/29/2015 10:51:39 PM) Link: that's kind of, exactly the thing?
(7/29/2015 10:51:40 PM) PDV: or possible transmogrifier
(7/29/2015 10:51:44 PM) Link: PDV - :D
(7/29/2015 10:51:45 PM) Teceler: no it is not?
(7/29/2015 10:51:53 PM) Teceler: PDV: why is it labeled that thing? XD
(7/29/2015 10:52:07 PM) PDV: Because Miles in a cardboard box is clearly Calvin.
(7/29/2015 10:52:48 PM) Teceler: linkhyrule5: like, Miles' thing is /finding ways to meet everyone's goals/, sort of?
(7/29/2015 10:53:04 PM) Teceler: and, like
(7/29/2015 10:53:10 PM) ***Teceler fails at words
(7/29/2015 10:53:16 PM) Link: yeah, but people have lots and lots of goals
(7/29/2015 10:53:18 PM) Teceler: augh I am too tired for this discussion
(7/29/2015 10:53:28 PM) Teceler: linkhyrule5: yeah, but they generally have goals they consider more important?
(7/29/2015 10:53:32 PM) Kappa: I am too tired for this discussion also
(7/29/2015 10:53:36 PM) Link: yeah, whatever
(7/29/2015 10:53:36 PM) Teceler: and goals that are the reasons for other goals?
(7/29/2015 10:53:39 PM) Link: we're all too tired
(7/29/2015 10:53:41 PM) Kappa: but like, Link, when I say "finding solutions that helped both of you"
(7/29/2015 10:53:42 PM) Kappa: I mean like
(7/29/2015 10:53:56 PM) Kappa: *not* "he gets to destroy the world and you get ice cream"?
(7/29/2015 10:54:25 PM) Link: okay, but that's a moral restriction
(7/29/2015 10:54:26 PM) Kappa: XD
(7/29/2015 10:54:29 PM) Kappa: no!
(7/29/2015 10:54:55 PM) PDV: One of the plausible ways to AI-box is to convince them that you can and will do the things they want even better than they can alone, and therefore they should let you out
(7/29/2015 10:55:31 PM) PDV: and that feels just the same to the guy outside the box as Miles convincing them that everybody gets good things here
(7/29/2015 10:56:00 PM) Teceler: ...?
(7/29/2015 10:56:13 PM) PDV: and I don't really see any difference in what you need to know about the gatekeeper and how you can influence them, that distinguishes between those two courses of persuasion
(7/29/2015 10:56:48 PM) Adelene: They require different modes of thought.
(7/29/2015 10:56:56 PM) Adelene: And therefore different skillsets.
(7/29/2015 10:57:06 PM) PDV: I disagree.
(7/29/2015 10:57:18 PM) Kappa: what I'm trying to say is that - it is not *purely* a matter of ethical constraints, like, ethical constraints make up a big part of why Miles has developed his particular skillset, and they're important to him, and they're *why he freaks out so hard at the thought that his charisma might end up overapplied by magic*, but when it is *not* being overapplied by magic he is *only* divinely gifted at the good shit
(7/29/2015 10:57:18 PM) Kappa: once again ade is articulating the things i'm trying to say better than i am
(7/29/2015 10:57:25 PM) Adelene: You can emulate one with the other, sometimes, like how Lurker can emulate introspection by paying attention to what people around her think of her
(7/29/2015 10:57:29 PM) Adelene: but they're not the same.
(7/29/2015 10:57:36 PM) PDV: I think you can't have either without having the other.
(7/29/2015 10:58:03 PM) Adelene: Well, you're wrong?
(7/29/2015 10:58:18 PM) Teceler: ...PDV I think it looks more like they're very /close/ skillsets? With overlap?
(7/29/2015 10:58:19 PM) Adelene: I mean, my own social skillset cleaves along that line, I know it's /possible/.
(7/29/2015 10:58:40 PM) ***PDV shrugs skeptically
(7/29/2015 10:58:56 PM) Kappa: Like precisely the reason why Miles is terrified of a world in which "high Social" is unified into a single entity that blurs seamlessly into straight-up magical mind control is because he has developed the one skillset and not the other and he does not want to suddenly have to watch his shit twice as hard because the dark arts came calling uninvited
(7/29/2015 10:59:22 PM) Adelene: Possibly you are in the habit of emulating what Miles does with the other thing, and don't realize that there /is/ a separate skillset; it is pretty obvious from this side of the divide that there is. :P
(7/29/2015 10:59:27 PM) Teceler: ...[hugs for Miles]
(7/29/2015 10:59:39 PM) Kappa: or even worse become *unable* to successfully watch his shit because the dark arts are inextricably magically intertwined with it
(7/29/2015 10:59:44 PM) PDV: Oh no, I'm mediocre at both.
(7/29/2015 11:00:15 PM) Kappa: Miles accepts your metafictional hugs.
(7/29/2015 11:00:20 PM) Adelene: That just suggests that you're in the habit of emulating one with the other and do both mediocrely. :P
(7/29/2015 11:00:27 PM) ***Andygal also hugs Miles
(7/29/2015 11:00:44 PM) Adelene: (For the record I don't disaprove of that, as such, just, it's a different thing from actually having the second skillset.)
(7/29/2015 11:01:09 PM) PDV: I have never met anyone with the imputed ability to convince people in positive ways who could not also use it for evil, and have definitely met people who had convinced themselves they were doing the good kind while actually doing the evil kind.
(7/29/2015 11:01:12 PM) Verdancy entered the room.
(7/29/2015 11:01:26 PM) Adelene: *\o/* verdancy
(7/29/2015 11:01:32 PM) Teceler: hello Verdancy!
(7/29/2015 11:01:33 PM) Verdancy: Hi!
(7/29/2015 11:01:39 PM) Link: I am also skeptical that that is a thing
(7/29/2015 11:01:49 PM) Adelene: PDV: Yeah? Those of us with the second skillset kind of tend to be quiet about it, in my experience.
(7/29/2015 11:01:54 PM) Teceler: ...um, you are walking into a debate about social, fair warning
(7/29/2015 11:01:55 PM) Link: Social is fundamentally "throwing information at people and anticipating how they react"
(7/29/2015 11:01:55 PM) PDV: So I'm not calling you a liar, but I do think you're wrong about your own capabilities.
(7/29/2015 11:02:01 PM) Verdancy: (Thank you)
(7/29/2015 11:02:38 PM) PDV: Ade, I think you could do the thing if you wanted to, and there weren't badbrains or deep-seated morality getting in the way
(7/29/2015 11:02:39 PM) Adelene: If I /wanted/ to develop the more directly manipulative skillset I'm sure I could; I, like Miles, don't want to.
(7/29/2015 11:02:40 PM) Link: Like... Even if you are somewhow magically constrained into only doing things people would want to do anywway
(7/29/2015 11:02:42 PM) Link: Like
(7/29/2015 11:02:45 PM) Link: Kyubey.
(7/29/2015 11:02:45 PM) Link: Okay.
(7/29/2015 11:02:50 PM) Link: That kind of sums it up.
(7/29/2015 11:02:56 PM) Kappa: kyubey is dark arts as hell
(7/29/2015 11:02:57 PM) Teceler: Link: ???
(7/29/2015 11:03:00 PM) Verdancy: (I had too much social interaction yesterday and I needed a break, I hope I didn't worry anyone by disappearing today?)
(7/29/2015 11:03:02 PM) Link: You can get people to do /pretty arbitrary things/
(7/29/2015 11:03:06 PM) Adelene: And even if I did want to I'd have to actually put the effort in, I couldn't just decide to one day.
(7/29/2015 11:03:15 PM) Link: by dint of picking the right goals
(7/29/2015 11:03:33 PM) Kappa: kyubey is exemplary dark arts.
(7/29/2015 11:03:34 PM) Teceler: ...link I do not think you are talking about the same thing as everyone else?
(7/29/2015 11:03:38 PM) Adelene: (Verdancy: Only slightly, it's all good. You still have a 'she' in the tag btw)
(7/29/2015 11:04:08 PM) Verdancy: (Sorry about both things, I will fix the tag)
(7/29/2015 11:04:34 PM) Adelene: (You are allowed to do the thing and don't need to apologize // thank you)
(7/29/2015 11:04:49 PM) PDV: I'm not saying you could develop it if you wanted to, I'm saying you already have it, and that if you were motivated and uninhibited you could use those skills right now
(7/29/2015 11:04:56 PM) Andygal: Verdancy: *hugs*
(7/29/2015 11:05:12 PM) Adelene: I couldn't, though. I know how the skills I have work, they won't do that thing.
(7/29/2015 11:06:02 PM) Kappa: Link: ... I mean ... If you conceptualize people as machines into which you feed inputs and which subsequently produce outputs, and conceptualize social interaction as trying to find the input that gets you your desired output, that's... definitely a way to miss the existence of fundamentally non-dark-arts-driven social skillsets??
(7/29/2015 11:06:19 PM) Verdancy: *hugs* :)
(7/29/2015 11:06:22 PM) Adelene: *nods emphatically at Kappa*
(7/29/2015 11:06:22 PM) PDV: I mean, people are that thing
(7/29/2015 11:06:26 PM) Kappa: also oh god how did midnight happen XD
(7/29/2015 11:06:27 PM) Link: ^
(7/29/2015 11:06:31 PM) Link: basically that...
(7/29/2015 11:06:32 PM) Kappa: PDV: That is *a way to conceptualize people*
(7/29/2015 11:06:34 PM) PDV: they are other things, too, but they are that thing
(7/29/2015 11:06:36 PM) Andygal: PDV: noooooot really.
(7/29/2015 11:06:38 PM) Teceler: ...okay I think that is the fundamental problem here
(7/29/2015 11:06:43 PM) Link: Uhhhh, yes they are, that's what brains are
(7/29/2015 11:06:47 PM) PDV: ^
(7/29/2015 11:06:49 PM) Link: organic computation
(7/29/2015 11:07:01 PM) Teceler: link: that is a /simplication/
(7/29/2015 11:07:07 PM) PDV: Nope
(7/29/2015 11:07:07 PM) Link: .... nnnno.
(7/29/2015 11:07:11 PM) Link: That's just... what brains are.
(7/29/2015 11:07:13 PM) Adelene: If I conceptualize people as machines that takes inputs and give outputs, and try to feed that into my existing skillset, /all my skills stop working/.
(7/29/2015 11:07:13 PM) Link: they're computers
(7/29/2015 11:07:24 PM) Link: That says to me that most of your skills are approximations
(7/29/2015 11:07:38 PM) Adelene: *shrug* hard to argue with results though.
(7/29/2015 11:07:49 PM) Link: that work on a model where humans are ensouled beings with nonreducible desires and emotions
(7/29/2015 11:07:50 PM) Teceler: that says to me that you two are modeling people /entirely differently/ and that is a thing that is
(7/29/2015 11:08:09 PM) Teceler: linkhyrule5: ...look I know you are tired here but
(7/29/2015 11:08:11 PM) Teceler: assumptions
(7/29/2015 11:08:18 PM) Link: ... I guess?
(7/29/2015 11:08:23 PM) Link: but also, revealed attributes?
(7/29/2015 11:08:28 PM) PDV: The model of 'minds are computers' is really difficult to actually use, but it's the true one
(7/29/2015 11:08:29 PM) Link: Because, like, the physics is not going to lie
(7/29/2015 11:08:39 PM) Link: I am much more confident in the physics of brains than I am in the psychology of brains
(7/29/2015 11:08:57 PM) Link: anything you use that isn't working on that level is working on an approximation
(7/29/2015 11:08:57 PM) Adelene: Which of us is decent at social in practice, though? :P
(7/29/2015 11:09:03 PM) Teceler: like, brains are sufficently complicated machines that conceptualizing them as that does not actually help with anything?
(7/29/2015 11:09:06 PM) Link: I'm not a good biologist
(7/29/2015 11:09:13 PM) Link: but that doesn't mean I can't say things that Must Be True about biology
(7/29/2015 11:09:18 PM) Evenstar: PDV: Er, when was the last time you looked at the instruction set of a human brain?
(7/29/2015 11:09:19 PM) Teceler: ...link
(7/29/2015 11:09:30 PM) Link: because biology is an approximation of chemistry and chemistry is an approximation of physics and physiscs is the actual way the world works
(7/29/2015 11:09:32 PM) Teceler: link I think you need to go sleep
(7/29/2015 11:09:43 PM) Andygal: ...
(7/29/2015 11:09:43 PM) PDV: I haven't because it's an insanely complex computation
(7/29/2015 11:09:50 PM) Andygal: link, stop, link.
(7/29/2015 11:10:04 PM) ***Link is really not getting it
(7/29/2015 11:10:07 PM) Kappa: link, I get way better results interacting with my computer using the attached input devices and conceptualizing it as a space whose visible contents I am manipulating than I would by trying to input assembly code into the CPU on the fly
(7/29/2015 11:10:24 PM) Link: Yeah, but like - that doesns't mean that... like.
(7/29/2015 11:10:32 PM) Evenstar: ^^ What Kappa said basically.
(7/29/2015 11:10:35 PM) Link: I guess the metaphor is that "USBs are moral and serial ports are not"?
(7/29/2015 11:10:37 PM) Kappa: despite the fact that assembly code going through the CPU is what's ~~~really happening~~~ when I interact with my computer?
(7/29/2015 11:10:38 PM) Link: Or something like that?
(7/29/2015 11:10:41 PM) Kappa: No
(7/29/2015 11:10:43 PM) Kappa: the
(7/29/2015 11:10:43 PM) Kappa: no.
(7/29/2015 11:10:46 PM) Adelene: The assembly model isn't /wrong/ but it's also very much not /useful/.
(7/29/2015 11:10:54 PM) Andygal: Yeah
(7/29/2015 11:11:02 PM) Evenstar: Linkhyrule5: No, the metaphor is that what matters is the code you load.
(7/29/2015 11:11:14 PM) Link: ... _that's my point_
(7/29/2015 11:11:23 PM) Teceler: ...no
(7/29/2015 11:11:24 PM) Link: Anything you use to load /one/ piece of code
(7/29/2015 11:11:28 PM) Andygal: looking at psychology in terms of physics is non-helpful.
(7/29/2015 11:11:28 PM) Teceler: because different code
(7/29/2015 11:11:29 PM) Link: can be used to load /another/ piece of code
(7/29/2015 11:11:30 PM) Teceler: ...augh link
(7/29/2015 11:11:36 PM) PDV: it's like you're saying 'I have built Google Chat and it is moral, but I could not build Skype, which is immoral'
(7/29/2015 11:11:47 PM) Kappa: I would also like to point out that I am a pretty damn decent programmer and I don't know thing fucking one about cracking systems?
(7/29/2015 11:11:48 PM) Teceler: yes, social is a thing that can be used for evil
(7/29/2015 11:11:56 PM) Teceler: that is /all that says/ in this metaphor
(7/29/2015 11:12:19 PM) Kappa: I *could learn* how to crack but I would have to *learn* it because *the skills I have don't transfer seamlessly to that domain*
(7/29/2015 11:12:25 PM) Andygal: PDV: no, just no.
(7/29/2015 11:12:30 PM) Link: Yeah, but like
(7/29/2015 11:12:35 PM) PDV: how is it different, Andygal?
(7/29/2015 11:12:37 PM) Evenstar: I mean, I would like to point out that straight-up mind control can be moral under some circumstances.
(7/29/2015 11:12:42 PM) Link: ^^^
(7/29/2015 11:12:48 PM) Evenstar: (Really rediculously constrained ones)
(7/29/2015 11:13:02 PM) Adelene: more like 'I have Google Chat, which declines to implement immoral functions, and I use this for chatting; I'm a programmer, so, sure, I could build Skype and put immoral functions in it, but that doesn't mean I have already done that thing or am using it here, or that I ever will'
(7/29/2015 11:13:27 PM) Adelene: (Also what Kappa said.)
(7/29/2015 11:13:41 PM) Evenstar: Adelene: I reject the axiom that there is such a thing as a wholly immoral function.
(7/29/2015 11:13:51 PM) Link: ^ that too
(7/29/2015 11:13:54 PM) Adelene: (Agreed, Evenstar, but.)
(7/29/2015 11:13:59 PM) Link: yeah, but the point I'mt rying to make is that /any use of social/ is "cracking systems"
(7/29/2015 11:14:07 PM) Link: because you're fundamentally trying to make some other system behave the way you want
(7/29/2015 11:14:07 PM) Kappa: ???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????????????????????????????????
(7/29/2015 11:14:16 PM) Kappa: !!!!!!!!!!!?????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????????????????????????????????????
(7/29/2015 11:14:20 PM) Adelene: And the people who are better at social than you are are disagreeing with you on that!
(7/29/2015 11:14:22 PM) Andygal: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(7/29/2015 11:14:38 PM) Evenstar: .... !
(7/29/2015 11:14:38 PM) Andygal: Link you cannot reduce everything to physics.
(7/29/2015 11:14:42 PM) Andygal: it does not actually work.
(7/29/2015 11:14:45 PM) PDV: I do not think it is possible to be really good at the moral version without having understood it well enough to build the immoral version
(7/29/2015 11:14:48 PM) Link: 'Course I can, I'm justn ot smart enough for it to work
(7/29/2015 11:14:57 PM) Teceler: ...link no
(7/29/2015 11:15:06 PM) Teceler: just
(7/29/2015 11:15:07 PM) Teceler: no
(7/29/2015 11:15:09 PM) Teceler: stop
(7/29/2015 11:15:10 PM) PDV: link is technically correct. the best kind.
(7/29/2015 11:15:15 PM) Teceler: go sleep
(7/29/2015 11:15:15 PM) Evenstar: Linkhyrule5: Some uses of social are /reciprocal self-modification/
(7/29/2015 11:15:27 PM) Link: I don't really think this is something sleep is going to change my mind on?
(7/29/2015 11:15:29 PM) Adelene: PDV: It is possible to know how to use Google Talk without knowing anything whatsoever about programming, for one thing.
(7/29/2015 11:15:32 PM) Link: It might make me /not want to talk about it/
(7/29/2015 11:15:33 PM) Link: but
(7/29/2015 11:15:39 PM) Kappa: link a big part of the miles yelling is that if Miles agreed with you about any use of social being equivalent to cracking, he would stop talking to other humans and/or commit suicide
(7/29/2015 11:15:49 PM) Link: ...
(7/29/2015 11:15:55 PM) Teceler: it will at least let you express it without being quite so accidentally offensive
(7/29/2015 11:16:15 PM) Link: ME: "... alternatively, you can be very very careful about your double-edged sword that has no self-imposed morality limits"
(7/29/2015 11:16:18 PM) Teceler: and that is I think at least part of the problem here
(7/29/2015 11:16:20 PM) Evenstar: Okay, so I think the point you are trying to make, Link
(7/29/2015 11:16:34 PM) Link: "and also use thiss identical tool that is much more powerful but also goes wrong very easily"
(7/29/2015 11:16:38 PM) Evenstar: Is that 'power is the ability to make someone do something they do not want to do'
(7/29/2015 11:16:39 PM) ***PDV is confused why anyone would find this offensive
(7/29/2015 11:16:45 PM) Link: Evenstar - yes, that.
(7/29/2015 11:16:51 PM) Link: and more than that
(7/29/2015 11:16:53 PM) Evenstar: And social skills give you power.
(7/29/2015 11:16:58 PM) Link: "make someone /want/ to do something they do not want to do"
(7/29/2015 11:17:04 PM) Link: that is ... not quite the thing
(7/29/2015 11:17:06 PM) Link: but is reasonably close
(7/29/2015 11:17:09 PM) Evenstar: ^^ Because they allow you to do that.
(7/29/2015 11:17:17 PM) Link: yes
(7/29/2015 11:17:24 PM) Evenstar: They are a specific type of power that allows you to adjust people's utility functions.
(7/29/2015 11:17:59 PM) Evenstar: HOWEVER
(7/29/2015 11:18:18 PM) Evenstar: That does not mean that the other party does not have /agency/
(7/29/2015 11:18:20 PM) PDV: also, if you look at how people go about getting better at social things, the techniques they teach themselves fit better with the one-skill model than the two-skill one
(7/29/2015 11:18:49 PM) Link: Evenstar - yes...?
(7/29/2015 11:18:52 PM) Evenstar: Nor does it mean that all social techniques necessarily oppose agency on the part of others.
(7/29/2015 11:18:57 PM) PDV: the helpful cooperative version is always easier but you learn the same tools
(7/29/2015 11:19:38 PM) Andygal: I would argue that being really good at helping people by socialing them is harder then being really good at screwing people over by socialing them.
(7/29/2015 11:20:02 PM) PDV: it is easier to convince someone to do a thing if it isn't seriously oppositional, but you need to be able to motivate people in oppositional situations, to be able to get them aligned with their own goals
(7/29/2015 11:20:36 PM) Andygal: that's different from helping people versus screwing them over.
(7/29/2015 11:20:48 PM) PDV: Andygal: yes, but it's easier to help someone than to screw them over without them knowing you screwed them over
(7/29/2015 11:20:56 PM) Verdancy: In my experience, when you know someone well, it is harder to comfort them than it is to hurt them.
(7/29/2015 11:21:16 PM) Evenstar: If you start modeling humans as black boxes that take inputs and spit out outputs, you start failing to notice that humans are /massively complicated/ and /you are a human/.
(7/29/2015 11:21:31 PM) Link: well yes, it's not a very good model
(7/29/2015 11:21:34 PM) Link: but like
(7/29/2015 11:21:38 PM) Link: it's strictly... what's the word
(7/29/2015 11:21:38 PM) Teceler: it is an /awful model/
(7/29/2015 11:21:40 PM) Link: less?
(7/29/2015 11:21:43 PM) Link: stricter?
(7/29/2015 11:21:50 PM) Link: Things taht are true about that model must be true of all more refined models
(7/29/2015 11:21:55 PM) Teceler: ...no?
(7/29/2015 11:22:12 PM) PDV: to get people you're working with to do a thing they truly want to do, you do need to help them get past obstacles that they, in the moment, do not want to do, and the ways you get past those and the ways you get past bigger things are the same
(7/29/2015 11:22:13 PM) Link: anything that's true of "two black boxes talking to each other"
(7/29/2015 11:22:30 PM) Link: must be true of any /particular/ black box
(7/29/2015 11:22:38 PM) Evenstar: ... Why?
(7/29/2015 11:22:41 PM) Teceler: ...???
(7/29/2015 11:22:57 PM) Link: ...
(7/29/2015 11:23:00 PM) Link: uh, that's just how math works?
(7/29/2015 11:23:02 PM) PDV: It's possible for a more refined, useful model to not have that property. But that is an inaccuracy in the model.
(7/29/2015 11:23:08 PM) Evenstar: That's like saying that anything that's true of a system of triangles must be true of one triangle.
(7/29/2015 11:23:11 PM) Kappa: i think i might know what link's getting at sort of, but link you are stating this in a really impenetrable ass-backwards way
(7/29/2015 11:23:14 PM) Link: if you prove something in general, then it must be true in specific
(7/29/2015 11:23:19 PM) Link: possibly
(7/29/2015 11:23:25 PM) Evenstar: But some systems of triangles are /squares/
(7/29/2015 11:23:29 PM) PDV: If something is true of all triangles, it is true of this triangle.
(7/29/2015 11:23:31 PM) Link: like, if you prove something of quadrilaterals
(7/29/2015 11:23:34 PM) Link: it must be true for rectangles
(7/29/2015 11:23:41 PM) Link: if you prove something for /arbitrary black boxes/
(7/29/2015 11:23:45 PM) Teceler: this is why you should not have this conversation on the amount of sleep have thing
(7/29/2015 11:23:47 PM) Link: it must be true of /this particular thing/
(7/29/2015 11:23:51 PM) Teceler: *of sleep you have link
(7/29/2015 11:23:56 PM) Andygal: Noooooope
(7/29/2015 11:23:58 PM) Evenstar: Oh, okay, so you're saying that there's a simplifiable 'abstract person' that is like everybody?
(7/29/2015 11:23:58 PM) Link: ....
(7/29/2015 11:24:04 PM) Andygal: that doesn't even make any sense.
(7/29/2015 11:24:06 PM) PDV: Something which is true for an arbitrary collection of points must be true of any shape.
(7/29/2015 11:24:18 PM) Link: Andygal - that's just how math works >.>
(7/29/2015 11:24:20 PM) Link: Evenstar - sort of?
(7/29/2015 11:24:29 PM) Link: I mean, in the sense that "There is a wall and sounds come out of it"
(7/29/2015 11:24:30 PM) Link: is a "person"
(7/29/2015 11:24:54 PM) Kappa: I think we should all go to sleep because the math people are saying things that are *technically correct* but *sound really blatantly wrong if you don't know the technical background*
(7/29/2015 11:25:00 PM) PDV: You might model a collection of points as a series of boxes, and that will be a useful model even if many points in those boxes aren't in the collection.
(7/29/2015 11:25:06 PM) Teceler: link you are doing a /really bad job of communicating here/
(7/29/2015 11:25:08 PM) Link: kappabeta - that might be true, yes
(7/29/2015 11:25:15 PM) Evenstar: This sounds like you are taking a vastly simplified model and trying to apply it to a massively complex problem.
(7/29/2015 11:25:18 PM) Link: Teceler - maybe, but that's more "I math a lot?"
(7/29/2015 11:25:28 PM) Link: Evenstar - yes, and there are times where that rigorously works
(7/29/2015 11:25:38 PM) PDV: But if there is a property which is true of all collections of points, then if the series of boxes does not have that property, that is a flaw of the model.
(7/29/2015 11:25:45 PM) Teceler: and there are much more frequent times where that explodes in your face
(7/29/2015 11:25:49 PM) Link: .... er, no
(7/29/2015 11:25:54 PM) Link: I'm saying it's possible to identify those times
(7/29/2015 11:25:59 PM) Link: this is why math is /useful/
(7/29/2015 11:26:00 PM) Teceler: ?
(7/29/2015 11:26:06 PM) Teceler: link
(7/29/2015 11:26:09 PM) Link: because you can prove things of simpler objects and have them be true of more complex ones
(7/29/2015 11:26:15 PM) Kappa: it's twelve-thirty
(7/29/2015 11:26:15 PM) Teceler: ...yes
(7/29/2015 11:26:26 PM) Teceler: but the problem is you are jumping up orders of magnititudes of complexity levels
(7/29/2015 11:26:31 PM) Link: that doesn't /matter/ though
(7/29/2015 11:26:37 PM) Teceler: ...
(7/29/2015 11:26:44 PM) Kappa: I should be in bed approximately three hours ago
(7/29/2015 11:26:49 PM) Link: any more than "x + 2" stops equalling "x + 2"
(7/29/2015 11:26:55 PM) PDV: Link, the most practically useful models of humans do not behave as though they obey that property.
(7/29/2015 11:26:57 PM) Teceler: the things might hold true for the subunits, but they don't nessecarily matter for the bigger ones?
(7/29/2015 11:27:01 PM) Link: if you use 10234320140313040134 for x
(7/29/2015 11:27:06 PM) Evenstar: linkhyrule5: Could you back up and restate your axioms for us?
(7/29/2015 11:27:07 PM) Teceler: like
(7/29/2015 11:27:11 PM) PDV: No, Teceler, it's not a matter of subunits
(7/29/2015 11:27:18 PM) Link: Like, I'm nnot saying you build a person out of black boxes
(7/29/2015 11:27:19 PM) Teceler: I am doing a bad job with words too
(7/29/2015 11:27:20 PM) Evenstar: I'm having trouble following your argument.
(7/29/2015 11:27:21 PM) Link: I'm saying /the entire person is a black box/
(7/29/2015 11:27:24 PM) Andygal: Emergent properties are a thing.
(7/29/2015 11:27:35 PM) PDV: sorta kinda not really
(7/29/2015 11:27:59 PM) Link: Like, if I prove something of "Literally anything talks to Literally Anything Else"
(7/29/2015 11:28:00 PM) Teceler: and then you are saying that those black boxes obey the laws of physics in obvious ways
(7/29/2015 11:28:03 PM) PDV: but only 'not really' in a technical sense
(7/29/2015 11:28:03 PM) Andygal: so no you cannot reduce a person to their component parts and expect to be able to reconstruct the person from their component parties.
(7/29/2015 11:28:03 PM) Teceler: and then we are confused
(7/29/2015 11:28:17 PM) Link: then it has to be true of "computers", "particles," "rocks bouncing off each other", and "people"
(7/29/2015 11:28:29 PM) Teceler: but what I am trying to say to link is, like, metaphor, /things that are true about assembly code/ are /not necessarily true of the thing you build out of it/
(7/29/2015 11:28:39 PM) Link: ... ah
(7/29/2015 11:28:46 PM) Link: What I'm saying is "things that are true of 'any programming language'
(7/29/2015 11:28:50 PM) Link: are true of assembly code"
(7/29/2015 11:28:58 PM) Teceler: yeah
(7/29/2015 11:29:02 PM) Teceler: and you are going at people the other way around
(7/29/2015 11:29:06 PM) Link: .... nnnot really
(7/29/2015 11:29:17 PM) PDV: Link is describing properties of any program written in assembly, and saying that anything that compiles to assembly has those properties.
(7/29/2015 11:29:20 PM) ***Adelene wonders if it would be useful and not offensive to /kick Link and/or others. :
(7/29/2015 11:29:21 PM) Adelene: :P
(7/29/2015 11:29:21 PM) PDV: Which is 100% true.
(7/29/2015 11:29:28 PM) Link: mm
(7/29/2015 11:29:32 PM) Link: maybe?
(7/29/2015 11:29:37 PM) Link: I mean, I may or may not go to bed
(7/29/2015 11:29:41 PM) Evenstar: That is 100% true but seems totally irrelevant.
(7/29/2015 11:29:45 PM) Link: it's kind of early and also ~ hot
(7/29/2015 11:29:58 PM) Teceler: yeah that was fine up until you went into stuff that you thought was obvious about brains because physics
(7/29/2015 11:29:58 PM) Link: Yes and no. I would rather not be bored for several hours and the internet is awful here
(7/29/2015 11:30:01 PM) Teceler: and we were all confused
(7/29/2015 11:30:24 PM) Teceler: (or, well, I was at least? I can't /actually/ speak for other people)
(7/29/2015 11:30:25 PM) PDV: It is useful to treat the program as though the assembly does not exist, and just work with the nice friendly Ruby interface
(7/29/2015 11:30:45 PM) PDV: but the things that are true of the assembly it compiles into are true of the Ruby program as well. Technically.
(7/29/2015 11:30:48 PM) Kappa: ok hands up who here has actually written a program in an assembly language
(7/29/2015 11:30:53 PM) ***Kappa raises hand
(7/29/2015 11:30:53 PM) Andygal: maybe we should talk about something else?
(7/29/2015 11:30:55 PM) ***PDV raises hand
(7/29/2015 11:31:09 PM) ***Evenstar raises hand
(7/29/2015 11:31:13 PM) ***Link raises hand
(7/29/2015 11:31:20 PM) Kappa: damn that's more hands than i expected tbh
(7/29/2015 11:31:22 PM) Link: though mine barely counted
(7/29/2015 11:31:23 PM) Evenstar: I think we all agree it kind of sucks.
(7/29/2015 11:31:24 PM) PDV: (the metaphor would be better if there were actual useful properties of assembly)
(7/29/2015 11:31:26 PM) Kappa: hahahahaha
(7/29/2015 11:31:39 PM) Link: hahhah
(7/29/2015 11:31:40 PM) Adelene: the fact that there aren't is actualy kind of the point I think :P
(7/29/2015 11:31:41 PM) Teceler: like, PDV, a thing that is true of the assembly code and not the program is 'is assembly code'
(7/29/2015 11:31:42 PM) PDV: (other than 'lack of constraints')
(7/29/2015 11:31:54 PM) Evenstar: (We are a wierd kind of group :P)
(7/29/2015 11:31:56 PM) PDV: The program is assembly code, though.
(7/29/2015 11:32:10 PM) Link: you've rewritten it - modeled it - as something with higher-level functions
(7/29/2015 11:32:15 PM) PDV: When it runs, it is running in assembly. There is a piece of assembly code which is that program.
(7/29/2015 11:32:18 PM) Teceler: no, the program is an abstraction thereof, if you want to get technical
(7/29/2015 11:32:22 PM) Teceler: yes
(7/29/2015 11:32:24 PM) Teceler: but no
(7/29/2015 11:32:28 PM) Teceler: like
(7/29/2015 11:32:52 PM) Andygal: the program is an emergent property of the code
(7/29/2015 11:32:59 PM) Teceler: ...yeah that is part of the thing
(7/29/2015 11:33:01 PM) PDV: that doesn't mean anything
(7/29/2015 11:33:07 PM) Teceler: PDV: ???
(7/29/2015 11:33:12 PM) Evenstar: ... Well /technically/ it's even lower-level than /that/...
(7/29/2015 11:33:13 PM) PDV: literally, that statement has no content
(7/29/2015 11:33:24 PM) Evenstar: But let's not have that discussion.
(7/29/2015 11:33:33 PM) PDV: I tried to write in that once!
(7/29/2015 11:33:37 PM) PDV: It didn't work much!
(7/29/2015 11:33:49 PM) Teceler: I can't
(7/29/2015 11:33:50 PM) Teceler: augh
(7/29/2015 11:33:52 PM) Teceler left the room (Leaving).
(7/29/2015 11:34:15 PM) PDV: ... I will shut up about the thing
(7/29/2015 11:34:28 PM) PDV: I probably should have done that sooner
(7/29/2015 11:34:31 PM) Evenstar: (I know a crazy person who has written their own virtual machine, then their own compiler for their own programming language and run that programming language on their own virtual machine)
(7/29/2015 11:34:38 PM) Kappa: my assembly coding story: There was an assignment to write a self-modifying program in the assembly code of this simple VM to handle some really basic text manipulation. I wrote my program, tested it rigorously, verified that it handled all cases correctly, handed it in, and got marks off because the TA couldn't understand how it worked.
(7/29/2015 11:34:42 PM) PDV: this is a good person I approve of them
(7/29/2015 11:34:57 PM) PDV: that TA is terrible
(7/29/2015 11:35:09 PM) Kappa: I was like ??? if you're going to ask smart people to write assembly programs and specifically require them to be self-modifying you should be prepared for some confusion ???
(7/29/2015 11:35:09 PM) PDV: and I've done that job in the past, so i can say that with confidence
(7/29/2015 11:35:51 PM) Evenstar: (Currently they are building full-adders out of transistors and NAND chips)
(7/29/2015 11:36:07 PM) Kappa: evenstar: fun!
(7/29/2015 11:36:15 PM) Evenstar: (It is cool!)
(7/29/2015 11:36:24 PM) Kappa: the course in which I wrote that program was in fact a course that was basically "how to build a computer out of subatomic particles"
(7/29/2015 11:36:31 PM) Verdancy left the room (quit: Quit:
www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client).
(7/29/2015 11:36:36 PM) Evenstar: hee
(7/29/2015 11:36:42 PM) PDV: I TA'ed for a slightly simpler version of that class, I think
(7/29/2015 11:36:56 PM) PDV: it just covered from NAND gates to Java
(7/29/2015 11:37:01 PM) Verdancy entered the room.
(7/29/2015 11:37:25 PM) Kappa: This one started on the physics level with a probably-oversimplified explanation of, like, how manipulating electricity actually gives you logic gates
(7/29/2015 11:37:51 PM) PDV: sweet
(7/29/2015 11:38:02 PM) Kappa: and then how you build logic gates out of other logic gates and then how you build circuits out of logic gates and then how you make those circuits be a simple CPU and then how you code in the assembly language of the CPU you just built
(7/29/2015 11:38:10 PM) Evenstar: That's pretty cool
(7/29/2015 11:38:16 PM) PDV: I read about that stuff in The Way Things Work when I was a kid and it made An Impression
(7/29/2015 11:38:24 PM) Andygal: sweeeeeet
(7/29/2015 11:38:25 PM) Kappa: it is probably my second favourite all-time comp sci class i have taken
(7/29/2015 11:38:35 PM) Kappa: my first favourite being Principles of Programming Languages
(7/29/2015 11:38:36 PM) PDV: (did any of y'all have that book?)
(7/29/2015 11:38:41 PM) Evenstar: That sounds like a really cool class and I wish my local university offered it.
(7/29/2015 11:38:47 PM) ***Evenstar still has that book!
(7/29/2015 11:38:51 PM) Kappa: in other words the straightup lowest-level was awesome but not quite as awesome as the straightup highest-level
(7/29/2015 11:38:53 PM) Kappa: i'm a bit odd
(7/29/2015 11:38:55 PM) ***Evenstar could lay hands on it in about five minutes.
(7/29/2015 11:38:55 PM) Kappa: anyway though
(7/29/2015 11:39:11 PM) ***PDV agrees with those class preferences
(7/29/2015 11:39:44 PM) Kappa: this conversation has caused me to stay up LUDICROUSLY far past my bedtime and i should probably go to sleep even though i am currently really wired and there is a small bipolar intelligence agent yelling in my brain
(7/29/2015 11:39:54 PM) Evenstar: pfffthahah
(7/29/2015 11:40:01 PM) Evenstar: (tiny miles is cute)
(7/29/2015 11:40:05 PM) Kappa: XD
(7/29/2015 11:40:10 PM) PDV: sorry kappa
(7/29/2015 11:40:13 PM) Evenstar: (Would you like a shoulder Eva?)
(7/29/2015 11:40:16 PM) Kappa: he smol. and VIGOROUSLY YELLING
(7/29/2015 11:40:19 PM) Kappa: XD
(7/29/2015 11:40:27 PM) PDV: SMOL YELL
(7/29/2015 11:40:34 PM) Kappa: <3
(7/29/2015 11:41:17 PM) Andygal: awwwwww
(7/29/2015 11:41:20 PM) Andygal: <3
(7/29/2015 11:41:37 PM) PDV: <3
(7/29/2015 11:41:47 PM) ***PDV pokes the kappa to sleep
(7/29/2015 11:42:41 PM) Kappa: I am attempting to wind down. I may have to promise Miles that I will try to have this conversation again later in #offtopic or something when it is several hours *before* my bedtime instead of *after*
(7/29/2015 11:43:05 PM) ***Evenstar asks Greater!Eva to separate a little self to send to Kappa
(7/29/2015 11:43:13 PM) PDV: I'd suggest pointing him at Dagoola or something to distract him
(7/29/2015 11:43:20 PM) PDV: but those would be in your brain too
(7/29/2015 11:43:26 PM) PDV: so it might not help
(7/29/2015 11:43:52 PM) ***Andygal is tempted to ask for an adorable yelling Miles, but I don't actually need something else to keep me up all night
(7/29/2015 11:43:53 PM) ***Evenstar lets little!Eva walk out along her fingers and then into the internets through her monitor. Hopefully she'll find her way to a Kappa.
(7/29/2015 11:44:19 PM) Evenstar: (Hopefully it'll be easier to sleep if Miles is yelling at an Eva instead of a you)
(7/29/2015 11:44:29 PM) Kappa: <333333333333
(7/29/2015 11:44:36 PM) Andygal: <3
(7/29/2015 11:44:41 PM) Evenstar: (Did you get an Eva? <3)
(7/29/2015 11:45:02 PM) Teceler entered the room.
(7/29/2015 11:45:41 PM) Kappa: i do not think i received your delivery of an eva
(7/29/2015 11:45:47 PM) Link: Teceler - the explosions are done
(7/29/2015 11:45:57 PM) Link: on a side note, PDV
(7/29/2015 11:45:59 PM) Andygal: wibbles Teceler
(7/29/2015 11:46:05 PM) Link: I'm trying to use Heroku
(7/29/2015 11:46:06 PM) Link: and kind of failing
(7/29/2015 11:46:14 PM) Teceler: I was informed, that is why I am back here
(7/29/2015 11:46:15 PM) Link: admittedly that's probably more because what is sleep
(7/29/2015 11:46:17 PM) Evenstar: (Aw. Well, she'll turn up. She has a tendency to do that.)
(7/29/2015 11:46:36 PM) Evenstar: (All you need to do is listen in the right sort of way. <3)
(7/29/2015 11:46:37 PM) Link: OTC: "We could expedite your delivery for a small fee"
(7/29/2015 11:46:37 PM) Link: :P
(7/29/2015 11:46:38 PM) anon entered the room.
(7/29/2015 11:46:39 PM) PDV: yes, probably
(7/29/2015 11:46:44 PM) PDV: xD
(7/29/2015 11:46:46 PM) Evenstar: (Hee!)
(7/29/2015 11:46:56 PM) Kappa: anon?
(7/29/2015 11:47:07 PM) Evenstar: Do you have a face?
(7/29/2015 11:47:08 PM) Link: PDV - anyway, so
(7/29/2015 11:47:09 PM) Link: yeah
(7/29/2015 11:47:10 PM) Link: thing
(7/29/2015 11:47:20 PM) PDV: I am not actually a Heroku expert
(7/29/2015 11:47:36 PM) PDV: but I don't remember it being terribly hard?
(7/29/2015 11:47:40 PM) ***Andygal pokes the anon
(7/29/2015 11:47:52 PM) anon: Spectating only
(7/29/2015 11:48:10 PM) Link:
github.com/robertmaxton42/Floydian-Lands(7/29/2015 11:48:10 PM) Link: here
(7/29/2015 11:48:12 PM) PDV: anon will show up later. It's Shakespearean language. :{
(7/29/2015 11:48:13 PM) Link: can you just
(7/29/2015 11:48:14 PM) Link: make that work?
(7/29/2015 11:48:16 PM) Link: >.>
(7/29/2015 11:48:42 PM) PDV: working on it, link
(7/29/2015 11:48:47 PM) Link: yay
(7/29/2015 11:48:49 PM) Link: thanks
(7/29/2015 11:49:59 PM) Verdancy left the room (quit: Quit:
www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client).
(7/29/2015 11:50:36 PM) anon left the room (quit: Quit:
www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client).
(7/29/2015 11:52:03 PM) Evenstar left the room (quit: Quit:
www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client).
(7/29/2015 11:52:12 PM) Teceler: ...did mibbit break?
(7/29/2015 11:53:17 PM) Andygal: possibly.
(7/29/2015 11:54:26 PM) Kappa: ok here i am going to bed
(7/29/2015 11:54:30 PM) Kappa: goodnight friends
(7/29/2015 11:54:47 PM) Andygal: goodnight!!
(7/29/2015 11:54:51 PM) Link: night kappabeta
(7/29/2015 11:54:54 PM) Kappa left the room.
(7/29/2015 11:55:06 PM) Teceler: sleep well--
(7/29/2015 11:55:07 PM) Teceler: ah, too late
(7/29/2015 11:55:17 PM) Andygal: :(
(7/29/2015 11:55:31 PM) PDV left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 181 seconds).
(7/29/2015 11:55:52 PM) PDV entered the room.
(7/29/2015 11:59:20 PM) Verdancy entered the room.
(7/29/2015 11:59:41 PM) Teceler: Verdancy did mibbit break?
(7/30/2015 12:00:42 AM) Verdancy: Um
(7/30/2015 12:00:46 AM) Verdancy: I don't think so?
(7/30/2015 12:00:49 AM) Teceler: okay
(7/30/2015 12:00:50 AM) Verdancy: My computer overheated again
(7/30/2015 12:00:56 AM) Verdancy: so
(7/30/2015 12:00:58 AM) Teceler: bunch of mibbiters dropped off at once, is why I wondered
(7/30/2015 12:01:02 AM) Verdancy: Oh.
(7/30/2015 12:01:04 AM) ***Teceler pats your poor computer
(7/30/2015 12:01:07 AM) Verdancy: I didn't notice.
(7/30/2015 12:01:09 AM) PDV: my wifi dropped a moment later but I don't think it's connected
(7/30/2015 12:01:12 AM) Verdancy: It is a very poor computer.
(7/30/2015 12:01:28 AM) Teceler: (do you have a heat tracker running? You possibly should)
(7/30/2015 12:01:30 AM) PDV: you were the first to drop. then anon and Eva, then me
(7/30/2015 12:02:09 AM) Verdancy: This is actually the first I have heard of heat tracking, I will get one maybe? But really what I should do is move over to the less broken computer.
(7/30/2015 12:02:16 AM) Verdancy: I just.
(7/30/2015 12:02:19 AM) Verdancy: Haven't done it yet.
(7/30/2015 12:02:38 AM) Teceler: ...this is seriously the first you've--
(7/30/2015 12:02:43 AM) Verdancy: yeaaah
(7/30/2015 12:02:46 AM) Verdancy: Yeah.
(7/30/2015 12:02:48 AM) Teceler: um, you are probably not running linux, if you were I could rec some things
(7/30/2015 12:02:53 AM) Verdancy: Nnnnnope.
(7/30/2015 12:02:57 AM) Verdancy: Sorry.
(7/30/2015 12:03:07 AM) PDV: I am running linux and it had not occurred to me that that was a thing
(7/30/2015 12:03:14 AM) PDV: so I would take those recs
(7/30/2015 12:03:20 AM) MTC entered the room.
(7/30/2015 12:03:31 AM) PDV: o/`
(7/30/2015 12:03:35 AM) Verdancy: Hi
(7/30/2015 12:05:06 AM) Adelene: (Verdancy, there is still a 'she' in reference to Lurker, 'she has spellbooks', seems to be the last one though.)
(7/30/2015 12:06:43 AM) Andygal: adelene it has occured to me to wonder how obvious kobold sexual dimorphism is to a human?
(7/30/2015 12:06:49 AM) Adelene: Not at all.
(7/30/2015 12:06:49 AM) Teceler: well, I tried several, lm-sensors is I think the command-line thing.
(7/30/2015 12:07:01 AM) Teceler: I'm using psensor for a gui
(7/30/2015 12:07:13 AM) Verdancy: (Okay! Thank you for catching that, I will fix)
(7/30/2015 12:07:19 AM) Adelene: ( :) )
(7/30/2015 12:07:26 AM) Verdancy: ( :) )
(7/30/2015 12:07:49 AM) Andygal: would Lurker be super offended if somebody asked?
(7/30/2015 12:08:03 AM) Adelene: Depends on who, and what context.
(7/30/2015 12:08:15 AM) Adelene: And how she already felt about them.
(7/30/2015 12:08:22 AM) Teceler: ...Tyche can maybe translate that.
(7/30/2015 12:08:25 AM) Adelene: Random stranger kinda yes, though.
(7/30/2015 12:08:35 AM) Adelene: Tec: ?
(7/30/2015 12:08:41 AM) Teceler: as, like, a lot of languages do this thing, people tend to dislike be pronouned wrong
(7/30/2015 12:09:03 AM) Teceler: if they are not asking in a way that makes Tyche start yelling in the first place, I mean XD
(7/30/2015 12:09:11 AM) Adelene: Ah.
(7/30/2015 12:09:15 AM) Adelene: Yeah.
(7/30/2015 12:09:47 AM) Teceler: but pronouns is a thing ze is more familiar with than Lurker, I think
(7/30/2015 12:10:41 AM) Adelene: Kobold culture and animalperson pronoun stuff are a little bit of a perfect storm, here. Tigerpeople don't have their own language, but animalperson is primarily a /trade/ language, and a lot of the relevant species can't tell each other's genders by sight even if they can tell within their species, so it defaults to a nongendered pronoun.
(7/30/2015 12:10:51 AM) Adelene: And then kobolds don't really do gender to begin with, so.
(7/30/2015 12:10:55 AM) Teceler: pfft
(7/30/2015 12:10:55 AM) Teceler: yeah
(7/30/2015 12:11:25 AM) Adelene: (Like, individual kobolds do, some of 'em, but not the majority and the culture doesn't hardly at all.)
(7/30/2015 12:12:26 AM) Adelene: The only time you use gendered pronouns for someone is if their gender matters, and there's a rather, uh, constrained set of circumstances where that is true.
(7/30/2015 12:12:28 AM) Teceler: Tyche will kind of be like 'if you want to use they pronouns that is fine! but people will appreciate being able to tell which you prefer because that is a thing in a bunch of cultures'
(7/30/2015 12:12:32 AM) Teceler: pfffft
(7/30/2015 12:12:46 AM) Link: Adelene - wait, is Lurker not a she?
(7/30/2015 12:12:49 AM) ***Link has confused
(7/30/2015 12:12:58 AM) Link: oh I see
(7/30/2015 12:13:02 AM) Link: caught up
(7/30/2015 12:13:08 AM) Link: though Verdancy confusion?
(7/30/2015 12:13:14 AM) Adelene: Lurker genders female! Lurker also thinks that it is /very weird/ that random strangers think that that is any of their business whatsoever.
(7/30/2015 12:13:24 AM) Teceler: XDXDXD
(7/30/2015 12:13:30 AM) Andygal: XDXD
(7/30/2015 12:13:35 AM) Verdancy: :D
(7/30/2015 12:13:43 AM) Teceler: Lurker can put 'they' as her pronoun on her profile then! And people will use 'they'!
(7/30/2015 12:13:55 AM) Teceler: if that is what she prefers
(7/30/2015 12:14:06 AM) Teceler: and there will be less confusion. Hopefuly
(7/30/2015 12:14:22 AM) Adelene: I mean, yes, but her sense of aesthetics are offended enough at being asked the question at all that given the option to go 'nope' she does that.
(7/30/2015 12:14:35 AM) Teceler: ...aww Lurker
(7/30/2015 12:14:51 AM) Adelene: If people start actually asking her ICly she will probably change her profile though.
(7/30/2015 12:15:51 AM) Adelene: (And on the other hand she doesn't strongly /mind/ that people are gendering her female because of the previous mixup. It's complicated.)
(7/30/2015 12:16:25 AM) Teceler: like, the board does not have cultural defaults? putting a gender-neutral pronoun there helps indicate that default where someone else couldn't fill it in. ...or she could, like, if she wants to be gendered, do that?
(7/30/2015 12:16:30 AM) Adelene: Like, there's a difference between having the thing be known and /telling/ people.
(7/30/2015 12:16:43 AM) Teceler: ...this might actually make Tyche start yelling at kobold culture if they talk about this XD
(7/30/2015 12:16:54 AM) Teceler: mm
(7/30/2015 12:17:14 AM) Teceler: but, like, having the thing be know breaks down in larger communities?
(7/30/2015 12:17:17 AM) Adelene: Also keep in mind that this isn't something kobolds talk about because kobolds don't /talk/.
(7/30/2015 12:17:22 AM) Teceler: yeah
(7/30/2015 12:17:25 AM) Teceler: that is a thing
(7/30/2015 12:17:41 AM) Andygal: somebody may have to explain to Lurker that in some cultures it's considered polite to ask people's gender/prfered pronouns if you can't tell.
(7/30/2015 12:17:46 AM) Adelene: *nod*
(7/30/2015 12:18:08 AM) Teceler: That is what Tyche would be trying to explain, I think, because Tyche is aware of that being a thing
(7/30/2015 12:18:11 AM) Adelene: *nod*
(7/30/2015 12:19:16 AM) Adelene: For most kobolds the concept of gender just never comes up. Lurker has some awareness of how other cultures handle it (tigerpeople are closer to the human norm) because she's a speaker, but her sensibilities are still 'what, why'.
(7/30/2015 12:19:29 AM) Teceler: pfft
(7/30/2015 12:19:47 AM) Andygal: (I feel like Anda's native language proably has a gender neutral pronoun for purposes of referring to a third party who's gender is unknown/a generic third party but using it as a prefered pronoun would be a little weird)
(7/30/2015 12:20:16 AM) Adelene: She's being very polite about her 'what, why'! She is not questioning people on their weird forward cultural norms at /all/. But, like... not for me, no, thank you, I will opt out and y'all can just deal with that.
(7/30/2015 12:20:26 AM) Teceler: pfft
(7/30/2015 12:20:30 AM) Andygal: hehehe
(7/30/2015 12:21:02 AM) Adelene: (She also doesn't really, like, know, that she's cis, is a thing.)
(7/30/2015 12:21:10 AM) Adelene: (Most kobolds aren't.)
(7/30/2015 12:21:19 AM) Teceler: poor Tyche is going to be so confused XD
(7/30/2015 12:21:21 AM) Teceler: (huh)
(7/30/2015 12:21:50 AM) Link: ... most kobold's aren't cis?
(7/30/2015 12:21:55 AM) Adelene: Kobold culture doesn't do gender, and about 60% of them are what would be cis-by-default, so they're essentially agender.
(7/30/2015 12:21:58 AM) ***Link is mildly confused at this for evolutionary reasons
(7/30/2015 12:22:00 AM) Link: ahhh
(7/30/2015 12:22:23 AM) Link: (I really have no idea what sort of pressures would result in a species that was /usually/ born in a body they didn't identify with.)
(7/30/2015 12:22:26 AM) Link: (Because. What?)
(7/30/2015 12:22:32 AM) Adelene: It does do /sexuality/, but that's oriented on biology, not gender.
(7/30/2015 12:23:05 AM) Teceler: ...is Lurker modeling this as that kind of thing?
(7/30/2015 12:23:17 AM) Adelene: modeling which as what?
(7/30/2015 12:23:28 AM) Teceler: the um, pronouns/gender thing? [words]
(7/30/2015 12:23:54 AM) Adelene: Lurker is modeling the pronouns as being related to biology, yes.
(7/30/2015 12:24:09 AM) Adelene: And is being /very polite/ about the fact that people keep telling her about their bits. :P
(7/30/2015 12:24:20 AM) Teceler: ...how confused does that make Lurker about Tyche pronouning then? XD
(7/30/2015 12:24:21 AM) Teceler: pffft
(7/30/2015 12:24:38 AM) Teceler: Tyche: augh
(7/30/2015 12:24:54 AM) Andygal: Anda has probably not even enountered the concept of gender identity versus physical sex and them being different. It helps that her society is pretty gender equal, so there's not a huge amount of difference in gender roles in the first place.
(7/30/2015 12:24:56 AM) Adelene: I mean, she knows Tyche doesn't have a body to start with.
(7/30/2015 12:25:23 AM) Adelene: Before that I think she was assuming ze was intersex, or just that something weird was going on.
(7/30/2015 12:25:34 AM) Andygal: pfffft
(7/30/2015 12:25:37 AM) Teceler: XD
(7/30/2015 12:26:06 AM) ***Link is wondering what this looks like in Entelechy
(7/30/2015 12:26:11 AM) Link: I mean the answer is 'weird'
(7/30/2015 12:26:13 AM) Link: but
(7/30/2015 12:26:16 AM) Link: *in what way*
(7/30/2015 12:27:11 AM) Teceler: Tyche: I've met people who regularly sleeve in /biomorphs/ that use ze.
(7/30/2015 12:27:16 AM) Adelene: Anyway - Lurker is going to be quite confused if/when someone misgenders her and she goes ?????!!!!???? about it. This is not a reaction she would have guessed that she would have.
(7/30/2015 12:27:24 AM) Andygal: I bet entelechy has casual sexual reassignment magi.
(7/30/2015 12:27:25 AM) Teceler: ...aww Lurker
(7/30/2015 12:27:32 AM) Andygal: awwwwww
(7/30/2015 12:27:37 AM) Teceler: [hugs for Lurker]
(7/30/2015 12:27:43 AM) Adelene: ^^ *hugs*
(7/30/2015 12:27:49 AM) ***Teceler looks at time
(7/30/2015 12:27:51 AM) Teceler: ...I really need to go sleep.
(7/30/2015 12:28:06 AM) Teceler: goodnight all
(7/30/2015 12:28:11 AM) Adelene: Sleep well!
(7/30/2015 12:28:13 AM) Andygal: night Teceler
(7/30/2015 12:28:19 AM) Teceler: thanks
(7/30/2015 12:28:24 AM) Verdancy: Good night, Teceler.
(7/30/2015 12:28:41 AM) Teceler is now known as Teceler|Asleep
(7/30/2015 12:28:55 AM) Andygal: like in Entelechy they are just like "oh you want to change that, sure, just step into this booth."
(7/30/2015 12:29:25 AM) Link: oh, that's definitely a thing
(7/30/2015 12:29:31 AM) Link: I was more thinking about the really odd things you can do to gender
(7/30/2015 12:29:36 AM) Link: even aside from "seven plus"
(7/30/2015 12:29:40 AM) Link: (genders)
(7/30/2015 12:30:22 AM) Link: Things like "Was originally a boy, but was retconned to have always been a girl while keeping the original mind, and the resultant merger has not yet stabilized" is probably common enough to have a pronoun
(7/30/2015 12:30:34 AM) Andygal: welpffffft
(7/30/2015 12:30:59 AM) Andygal: like Misfile?
(7/30/2015 12:31:04 AM) Link: Basically!
(7/30/2015 12:31:15 AM) Link: Misfiles are kind of common in Entelechy
(7/30/2015 12:31:17 AM) Link: in case you hadn't noticed :P
(7/30/2015 12:31:29 AM) Link: Also "Cursed to act like a boy but identifies as a girl, please refer to as a boy for all official purposes and as a girl for all unofficial ones"
(7/30/2015 12:31:39 AM) Link: that's probably a thing, though not very common
(7/30/2015 12:32:52 AM) Adelene: heh
(7/30/2015 12:33:01 AM) Adelene: you just kind of described my name situation :P
(7/30/2015 12:33:52 AM) ***Adelene keeps kicking around the idea of getting a legal name change, but, like, work, and also having their legal name for things keeps being handy.
(7/30/2015 12:33:54 AM) Andygal: hmm?
(7/30/2015 12:34:03 AM) Andygal: Oh OK
(7/30/2015 12:34:15 AM) Adelene: I consider 'Adelene' to be my actual real name. The government doesn't know this.
(7/30/2015 12:34:20 AM) Link: ha
(7/30/2015 12:35:09 AM) Adelene: And 'people who I trust enough to tell my real name and are polite enough to use it' is a useful category sometimes.
(7/30/2015 12:35:30 AM) Adelene: Especially with the natural reminders of who isn't in it.
(7/30/2015 12:35:41 AM) ***Verdancy offers hugs
(7/30/2015 12:35:44 AM) ***Link hugs
(7/30/2015 12:35:45 AM) Adelene: :)
(7/30/2015 12:35:47 AM) Andygal: yeah I can see that.
(7/30/2015 12:35:50 AM) ***Andygal also hugs
(7/30/2015 12:38:59 AM) Adelene: (Like, when I was in the hospital for two weeks last year. On the one hand, gods that was hard. On the other hand, it would have gone *spectacularly* worse without that divide.)
(7/30/2015 12:39:25 AM) Andygal: ugh.
(7/30/2015 12:39:37 AM) Teceler|Asleep is now known as Teceler
(7/30/2015 12:39:45 AM) PDV is now known as PDVanished
(7/30/2015 12:39:54 AM) Teceler: I"m going to bed but I wanted to stop for a moment to say
(7/30/2015 12:40:03 AM) Adelene: mm?
(7/30/2015 12:40:14 AM) Andygal: why are humans assholes sometimes?
(7/30/2015 12:40:18 AM) Teceler: link, Tyche wants to know why no one has invented programing languages for alethics
(7/30/2015 12:40:21 AM) Teceler: ...
(7/30/2015 12:40:25 AM) Teceler: [hugs for Adelene]
(7/30/2015 12:40:30 AM) Adelene: *hug*
(7/30/2015 12:40:44 AM) ***Teceler will read this properly in the morning
(7/30/2015 12:40:48 AM) Teceler is now known as Teceler|Asleep
(7/30/2015 12:42:09 AM) Adelene: In the sense of, like, on one hand they weren't even getting my name right, *augh*, but on the other hand, if they can't even get my name right it's hard to take anything else they're doing personally, they are obviously not clueful about me at /all/.
(7/30/2015 12:42:33 AM) Andygal: *more hugs*
(7/30/2015 12:42:41 AM) Adelene: *hug*
(7/30/2015 12:43:09 AM) Adelene: So, like, as a method for handling medical PTSD, I do actually recomend it kind of.
(7/30/2015 12:43:34 AM) Andygal: I am increasingly glad I don't have that particular issue.
(7/30/2015 12:43:50 AM) Adelene: *nod* 0/10 would not recomend, yes.
(7/30/2015 12:44:32 AM) Andygal: because I've spent so much time dealing with medical stuff, if I had that issue on top of it...
(7/30/2015 12:44:38 AM) Adelene: mmmmmmmhmm
(7/30/2015 12:49:06 AM) Andygal: it's like somebody doesn't conform to gender and so many people lose their shit.
(7/30/2015 12:50:03 AM) Adelene: heh
(7/30/2015 12:50:16 AM) Adelene: I have had weirdly little problem with that?
(7/30/2015 12:50:44 AM) Adelene: People are definitely /confused/ sometimes but I've never had anyone do anything meaner than ask if I was a boy or a girl.
(7/30/2015 12:51:02 AM) Andygal: where do you live?
(7/30/2015 12:51:06 AM) Adelene: Minneapolis.
(7/30/2015 12:51:46 AM) Andygal: that's what northeastern US?
(7/30/2015 12:51:54 AM) Adelene: more or less
(7/30/2015 12:52:13 AM) ***Andygal fails US geography
(7/30/2015 12:52:24 AM) Adelene: Way north, more east than west. The Mississippi river is within walking distance of my apartment.
(7/30/2015 12:52:37 AM) Andygal: cool
(7/30/2015 12:52:47 AM) Andygal: you'd be screwed if you lived in the south probably
(7/30/2015 12:53:06 AM) Adelene: Depends where, I think.
(7/30/2015 12:53:52 AM) Adelene: I lived in North Carolina before I lived here, and while I wasn't presenting as nonbinary at the time it didn't feel especially hostile where I was. (Durham, urban or at least trying to be, that matters.)
(7/30/2015 12:54:12 AM) Adelene: On the other hand, like
(7/30/2015 12:54:13 AM) ***Andygal is going by stereotypes and horror stories mostly
(7/30/2015 12:55:09 AM) Adelene: when I lived with Durham I literally didn't see anyone besides myself who was under the age of, like, 70, using a cane, and saw maybe three or four wheelchair users in as many years
(7/30/2015 12:56:17 AM) Adelene: here, it would be /highly/ unusual for me to be outside for an hour without seeing at least two or three people with canes, and pretty unusual for me to be outside for more than a couple hours without seeing someone using a wheelchair - likely more than one wheelchair. Also walkers, and most of the people using all of the above are not majorly old.
(7/30/2015 12:57:17 AM) Adelene: The difference is less stark with lgbt-ish stuff, but it seems, like, loosely equivalent - I have seen dudes in skirts here, not often but it happens, and it didn't at /all/ in NC.
(7/30/2015 12:57:36 AM) Andygal: I see young people in wheelchairs on a semi-regular basis. Mind I am a public transit user so I may be seeing a skewed sample in the first place.
(7/30/2015 12:57:56 AM) Adelene: (At least I'm assuming that someone with both a beard and a skirt is best classified that way. *shrug*)
(7/30/2015 12:58:27 AM) Andygal: was it a kilt?
(7/30/2015 12:58:30 AM) Adelene: nope!
(7/30/2015 12:59:36 AM) Adelene: (Young people in wheelchairs is not especially unusual. Young people with canes or walkers kinda is, in my experience, except it's\ not here.)
(7/30/2015 1:00:29 AM) Andygal: I don't see dudes wearing skirts here, but then I also don't really pay as much attention to that sort of thing as you probably do?
(7/30/2015 1:00:32 AM) Adelene: The sheer /number/ of people in wheelchairs in public is the unusual thing here vs. in NC or NJ or other places I've lived.
(7/30/2015 1:01:10 AM) Adelene: I don't pay a whole lot of attention actually.
(7/30/2015 1:04:06 AM) link_hyrule5 entered the room.
(7/30/2015 1:06:10 AM) Link left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 181 seconds).
(7/30/2015 1:06:24 AM) Andygal: demographics is weird
(7/30/2015 1:07:01 AM) Adelene: ?
(7/30/2015 1:07:17 AM) Andygal: about the wheelchair thing
(7/30/2015 1:08:40 AM) Adelene: it's, uh, not a demographics question, believe me.
(7/30/2015 1:09:14 AM) Adelene: wheelchair users /exist/ everywhere, the question is whether they're going out in public to be seen.
(7/30/2015 1:09:35 AM) Andygal: ...
(7/30/2015 1:09:42 AM) Adelene: yes, augh.
(7/30/2015 1:09:52 AM) Andygal: auuuugh
(7/30/2015 1:09:57 AM) Adelene: yup.
(7/30/2015 1:10:31 AM) Andygal: why humans, why do you have bigots?
(7/30/2015 1:11:54 AM) Adelene: *nod*
(7/30/2015 1:17:35 AM) link_hyrule5: Well, I dunno about /everywhere/. Hills exist >.>
(7/30/2015 1:17:56 AM) link_hyrule5: But yes, there are probably many many more people in wheelchairs for every person that goes out in public
(7/30/2015 1:18:07 AM) Adelene: Hills would be a reason for them to not go out, not a reason for them to not exist. :P
(7/30/2015 1:18:18 AM) link_hyrule5: Ha
(7/30/2015 1:18:26 AM) link_hyrule5: well, I mean, ideally you'd move away if you could
(7/30/2015 1:18:29 AM) link_hyrule5: to somewhere like Kansas
(7/30/2015 1:18:45 AM) ***link_hyrule5 just named the flattest place he could think of
(7/30/2015 1:18:55 AM) Adelene: On one hand, yes, on the other hand have you /seen/ what the laws around disability benefits are like?
(7/30/2015 1:19:18 AM) Andygal: there's a reason why a lot of homeless people are disabled.
(7/30/2015 1:19:18 AM) link_hyrule5: True
(7/30/2015 1:19:19 AM) link_hyrule5: >.>
(7/30/2015 1:19:46 AM) Adelene: There is literally a law that if you have more than $2,000 you lose your benefits. :P
(7/30/2015 1:20:01 AM) Adelene: Like, ever.
(7/30/2015 1:20:05 AM) Andygal: that's not even...
(7/30/2015 1:20:09 AM) Adelene: Yup.
(7/30/2015 1:20:10 AM) Andygal: augh.
(7/30/2015 1:20:13 AM) Adelene: Yup.
(7/30/2015 1:20:41 AM) link_hyrule5: ...?
(7/30/2015 1:20:44 AM) link_hyrule5: .....
(7/30/2015 1:20:47 AM) link_hyrule5: ??
(7/30/2015 1:20:50 AM) link_hyrule5: .......
(7/30/2015 1:20:51 AM) link_hyrule5: ???
(7/30/2015 1:20:54 AM) link_hyrule5: ...
(7/30/2015 1:20:58 AM) link_hyrule5: ????
(7/30/2015 1:21:03 AM) link_hyrule5: What.
(7/30/2015 1:21:16 AM) link_hyrule5: Uuuuugh.
(7/30/2015 1:21:28 AM) Adelene: Because supposedly if you're doing well enough to save up that much money you don't need the help.
(7/30/2015 1:21:44 AM) Adelene: I think the number has been the same since the 80s.
(7/30/2015 1:21:45 AM) Andygal: uuuuuuuuuugh
(7/30/2015 1:22:42 AM) link_hyrule5: ...
(7/30/2015 1:23:19 AM) Andygal: I think I want to punch somebody now
(7/30/2015 1:23:38 AM) Adelene: That seems like a reasonable response to me.
(7/30/2015 1:24:22 AM) Andygal: alas I like a proper target for my wrath
(7/30/2015 1:24:30 AM) Adelene: Yup.
(7/30/2015 1:24:35 AM) Adelene: Write your senator?
(7/30/2015 1:24:50 AM) ***Andygal is Canadian
(7/30/2015 1:24:56 AM) Adelene: Ah.
(7/30/2015 1:25:07 AM) Andygal: though I suspect the disability benefits are not so hot here either
(7/30/2015 1:25:24 AM) ***Adelene dunno what the situation is there but would guess they're not a ton better, yeah.
(7/30/2015 1:26:46 AM) Adelene: Verdancy, am I tagged? Also, would Lizzie notice/read the PM from Lurker before sending hers off?
(7/30/2015 1:30:20 AM) Verdancy: umm
(7/30/2015 1:32:18 AM) Verdancy: I don't think I have a PM from Lurker?
(7/30/2015 1:32:43 AM) Adelene: On Lurker's end, she listened to Lizzie's PM and then sent the book and went back to bed, and sent a response before going to sleep, which Lizzie presumably didn't get on account of not having the laptop open.
(7/30/2015 1:32:43 AM) link_hyrule5 left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 182 seconds).
(7/30/2015 1:33:25 AM) Adelene: Your tag covers like 3-4 hours there, Lurker is spending most of that asleep but not all of it. ^^
(7/30/2015 1:33:31 AM) Verdancy: Sent a response to the first PM Lizzie sent, you mean?
(7/30/2015 1:33:35 AM) Adelene: yeah
(7/30/2015 1:33:59 AM) Verdancy: In that case, maybe I should stop the tag where Lurker sends the reply?
(7/30/2015 1:34:40 AM) Adelene: You could. As described I don't think Lizzie gets the reply until she opens the laptop to send the second message though.
(7/30/2015 1:35:38 AM) Verdancy: Okay, I could have her open the laptop, see the message, and then end the tag, I guess?
(7/30/2015 1:35:44 AM) Adelene: *nod*
(7/30/2015 1:35:50 AM) Verdancy: All right. I will do that.
(7/30/2015 1:35:54 AM) Adelene: :)
(7/30/2015 1:38:17 AM) Link entered the room.
(7/30/2015 1:38:30 AM) Verdancy: Okay, I did the tedit
(7/30/2015 1:38:33 AM) Verdancy: *edit
(7/30/2015 1:38:42 AM) Verdancy: Hi, Link
(7/30/2015 1:38:45 AM) Adelene: Cool ^^
(7/30/2015 1:38:48 AM) Verdancy: :)
(7/30/2015 1:38:49 AM) ***Andygal pokes Link's connection
(7/30/2015 1:38:53 AM) Andygal: also yay tags
(7/30/2015 1:39:11 AM) Verdancy: This is... /really/ not my best work, but I'm not going to get better without practicing, so.
(7/30/2015 1:39:13 AM) ***Verdancy shrugs
(7/30/2015 1:39:23 AM) ***Andygal hugs
(7/30/2015 1:39:33 AM) ***Verdancy hugs back
(7/30/2015 1:39:34 AM) Andygal: if you want hugs
(7/30/2015 1:39:41 AM) ***Verdancy generally always wants hugs.
(7/30/2015 1:39:51 AM) Andygal: :)
(7/30/2015 1:39:55 AM) Adelene: I mean, it looks good to me?
(7/30/2015 1:39:55 AM) ***Link agrees!
(7/30/2015 1:39:58 AM) ***Link offers hugs
(7/30/2015 1:40:09 AM) Verdancy: Especially if they are internet hugs, which are far less complicated and taxing than IRL hugs.
(7/30/2015 1:40:17 AM) ***Verdancy hugs back
(7/30/2015 1:40:33 AM) Adelene: [result of hug] ^^
(7/30/2015 1:40:40 AM) Verdancy: aww
(7/30/2015 1:40:50 AM) ***Andygal feels a bit weird about IRL hugs sometimes too but internet hugs are great!
(7/30/2015 1:42:05 AM) ***Verdancy agrees
(7/30/2015 1:43:27 AM) Verdancy: I mean, the tag is okay? But there's a lot of [action][another action][another action] etcetera, it's just kind of plodding and I /used/ to be better but I haven't had the energy to do much of anything for ages until I got antidepressants a few months ago, and now I am starting to feel creative urges again, but I'm all rusty and it's just kind of bleh.
(7/30/2015 1:43:42 AM) Adelene: *hug*
(7/30/2015 1:43:45 AM) Andygal: :(
(7/30/2015 1:43:47 AM) Verdancy: *hug*
(7/30/2015 1:43:47 AM) Andygal: *hug*
(7/30/2015 1:43:50 AM) Verdancy: yeah. :/
(7/30/2015 1:43:57 AM) Verdancy: But practice! Practice is the thing/
(7/30/2015 1:44:00 AM) Verdancy: *thing.
(7/30/2015 1:44:01 AM) Adelene: yup!
(7/30/2015 1:45:50 AM) Verdancy: And everyone here is really nice, by the way, have I mentioned? Because everyone here is really nice.
(7/30/2015 1:46:11 AM) Andygal: <3
(7/30/2015 1:46:17 AM) Adelene: <3
(7/30/2015 1:46:24 AM) Verdancy: <3
(7/30/2015 1:53:41 AM) Adelene: *pokes at Lurker* hmh. she kind of wants to respond to the fact that this message isn't in chatspeak.
(7/30/2015 1:54:09 AM) Verdancy: Um, yeah.
(7/30/2015 1:54:27 AM) Andygal: was it meant to be in chatspeak?
(7/30/2015 1:54:33 AM) Adelene: But only kind of, she's also somewhat inclined to write it off as some kind of weird public/private thing.
(7/30/2015 1:54:36 AM) Verdancy: The chatspeak is half "deliberately affected to people will take her less seriously" and half "I am on my phone right now and also busy"
(7/30/2015 1:54:43 AM) Verdancy: *affected so
(7/30/2015 1:54:58 AM) Adelene: ah
(7/30/2015 1:54:59 AM) Verdancy: And this is serious, so she is being careful
(7/30/2015 1:55:02 AM) Adelene: *nod*
(7/30/2015 1:55:05 AM) Andygal: heh.
(7/30/2015 1:55:14 AM) Verdancy: I don't know if Lurker would be able to get that, though?
(7/30/2015 1:55:18 AM) Verdancy: From what she's seen?
(7/30/2015 1:55:31 AM) Andygal: I'm thinking probably noooot?
(7/30/2015 1:55:38 AM) Adelene: not at /all/.
(7/30/2015 1:55:43 AM) Andygal: the phone thing obviously not.
(7/30/2015 1:56:59 AM) Adelene: She was parsing the chatspeak as 'some kind of weird speech impediment, I dunno, probably rude to comment on'.
(7/30/2015 1:57:07 AM) Verdancy: hee
(7/30/2015 1:58:03 AM) Adelene: And now she is like 'humans and their weird ideas of tribemateness? probably? this one seems nice though, I will play along'.
(7/30/2015 1:58:08 AM) Verdancy: pfft
(7/30/2015 1:58:20 AM) Verdancy: I am endlessly entertained by Lurker's reactions to humans
(7/30/2015 1:58:27 AM) Adelene: ^^
(7/30/2015 1:58:40 AM) Andygal: (Singer finds chatspeak extremely annoying since it kind of confuses her text to speech thing)
(7/30/2015 1:58:45 AM) Verdancy: (aww)
(7/30/2015 1:59:12 AM) Verdancy: (If Singer mentions that Lizzie will stop doing it, at least when she is talking to her)
(7/30/2015 1:59:55 AM) Andygal: she might eventually PM Lizzie in priviate about it.
(7/30/2015 2:00:05 AM) ***Verdancy nods
(7/30/2015 2:00:09 AM) Andygal: (redundany, sorry)
(7/30/2015 2:00:21 AM) Verdancy: ?
(7/30/2015 2:00:33 AM) Andygal: PM in priviate.
(7/30/2015 2:00:36 AM) Andygal: is redundant
(7/30/2015 2:00:38 AM) Verdancy: Oh
(7/30/2015 2:00:53 AM) Verdancy: I cashier at a restaurant
(7/30/2015 2:01:06 AM) Verdancy: Several times a shift, I will catch myself saying "PIN number"
(7/30/2015 2:01:16 AM) Verdancy: And be deeply embarrased
(7/30/2015 2:01:17 AM) Andygal: :p
(7/30/2015 2:01:27 AM) Verdancy: *embarrassed
(7/30/2015 2:02:01 AM) Verdancy: I say ATM machine with a kind of private glee, though
(7/30/2015 2:02:17 AM) Andygal: ?
(7/30/2015 2:02:23 AM) Verdancy: hahaha, no one but me knows that that is grammatically incorrect!
(7/30/2015 2:02:36 AM) Andygal: ahahaha
(7/30/2015 2:02:37 AM) Verdancy: I am secretly getting away with improper grammar!
(7/30/2015 2:02:52 AM) Andygal: XD
(7/30/2015 2:03:23 AM) Adelene: (I still think of them as MAC machines, because way back in the day that's what they were called - it stands for Money Access Center.)
(7/30/2015 2:03:34 AM) Verdancy: Huh. That's cool.
(7/30/2015 2:03:37 AM) Verdancy: I did not know that!
(7/30/2015 2:03:43 AM) Verdancy: I am a young whippersnapper, you see
(7/30/2015 2:03:50 AM) Andygal: I did not know that either
(7/30/2015 2:03:55 AM) Adelene: heh
(7/30/2015 2:04:32 AM) Verdancy: I am sort of known for being a stickler for grammar
(7/30/2015 2:04:37 AM) Verdancy: Which was true when I was like, five
(7/30/2015 2:05:04 AM) Adelene: (I am, like, 33, I am not /that/ old.)
(7/30/2015 2:05:05 AM) Andygal: .awwwwww
(7/30/2015 2:05:07 AM) Verdancy: I haven't really bothered trying to convince people otherwise, though
(7/30/2015 2:05:09 AM) Adelene: (But old, yes.)
(7/30/2015 2:05:19 AM) Verdancy: hee :)
(7/30/2015 2:05:31 AM) Andygal: I am not the oldest person in this chatroom, hooray!
(7/30/2015 2:05:34 AM) Adelene: hee ^^
(7/30/2015 2:05:45 AM) Verdancy: I think Kel is the youngest?
(7/30/2015 2:05:50 AM) Adelene: probably
(7/30/2015 2:05:57 AM) Andygal: Yeah probably
(7/30/2015 2:06:35 AM) Verdancy: For the record, I am nineteen
(7/30/2015 2:06:46 AM) Andygal: I am 28.
(7/30/2015 2:07:05 AM) Verdancy: This is weird.
(7/30/2015 2:07:08 AM) ***Verdancy shrugs
(7/30/2015 2:07:23 AM) Andygal: ??
(7/30/2015 2:07:24 AM) Link left the room (quit: Connection reset by peer).
(7/30/2015 2:07:35 AM) Verdancy: I am talking to /proper adults/
(7/30/2015 2:07:40 AM) Verdancy: Such weird. Many grown up.
(7/30/2015 2:07:46 AM) Andygal: :D
(7/30/2015 2:07:53 AM) Verdancy: :D
(7/30/2015 2:08:04 AM) Adelene: *giggle*
(7/30/2015 2:08:15 AM) Andygal: a lot of people who know me in real life would probably disagree with calling me a proper adult
(7/30/2015 2:08:19 AM) Link entered the room.
(7/30/2015 2:08:19 AM) Verdancy: hee
(7/30/2015 2:08:29 AM) ***Verdancy eyes Link's connection
(7/30/2015 2:12:13 AM) Adelene: tag :)
(7/30/2015 2:12:21 AM) Link is now known as sleepyhyrule5
(7/30/2015 2:12:27 AM) sleepyhyrule5 is now known as sleephyrule5
(7/30/2015 2:18:28 AM) Verdancy: Okay, I am tagging now
(7/30/2015 2:18:32 AM) Verdancy: Good night, Link
(7/30/2015 2:19:33 AM) Verdancy: pfft oh my god
(7/30/2015 2:19:44 AM) Verdancy: I was looking at Lurker's icons, see
(7/30/2015 2:19:52 AM) Verdancy: Because I didn't remember seeing the magic one before
(7/30/2015 2:19:59 AM) Verdancy: And I saw the one labeled "shank"
(7/30/2015 2:20:03 AM) Verdancy: And I just...
(7/30/2015 2:20:36 AM) Adelene: hee :D
(7/30/2015 2:20:42 AM) Verdancy: Yes, That. :D
(7/30/2015 2:21:02 AM) Adelene: That one doesn't get used /often/ but there are times when it's the only one that's appropriate. ^^
(7/30/2015 2:21:33 AM) Verdancy: (I saw it in the Inavet thread)
(7/30/2015 2:21:39 AM) Adelene: *nodnod* ^^
(7/30/2015 2:21:47 AM) Verdancy: (It's just, like, 10x funnier with the caption)
(7/30/2015 2:21:53 AM) Adelene: :D
(7/30/2015 2:21:57 AM) Verdancy: *more funny
(7/30/2015 2:22:02 AM) Verdancy: *whatever
(7/30/2015 2:22:05 AM) Verdancy: :D
(7/30/2015 2:22:08 AM) Adelene: ^^
(7/30/2015 2:22:13 AM) Andygal: XD
(7/30/2015 2:22:45 AM) Andygal: It is super hilarious with the caption XD
(7/30/2015 2:22:56 AM) Verdancy: It iiiiis
(7/30/2015 2:23:36 AM) Adelene: ^^
(7/30/2015 2:30:06 AM) Verdancy: Do you have a preference for how many people from Lizzie's world are going to want to leave?
(7/30/2015 2:30:14 AM) Adelene: Not really.
(7/30/2015 2:30:32 AM) Verdancy: I am thinking like fifty-ish, but it could be any arbitrary number, really
(7/30/2015 2:30:49 AM) Adelene: Fiftyish isn't a problem at /all/.
(7/30/2015 2:31:03 AM) Verdancy: Okay.
(7/30/2015 2:31:14 AM) Verdancy: (This is just Lizzie's one single plane, though)
(7/30/2015 2:31:14 AM) Andygal: the Eclipsites might end up with a few? Possibly.
(7/30/2015 2:31:58 AM) Verdancy: I would need to ask Teceler, but I think she was going to maybe?
(7/30/2015 2:32:25 AM) Adelene: The place she's digging out has 117 rooms and a gigantic central area, the upper 78 aren't particularly horse-accessable but the lower 39 should be.
(7/30/2015 2:32:34 AM) Verdancy: Huh.
(7/30/2015 2:33:04 AM) Adelene: (I'm assuming horses don't do stairs even if they are sim ones.)
(7/30/2015 2:33:28 AM) Verdancy: Horses in Sims don't do stairs. They glitch through walls /all the time/, though
(7/30/2015 2:33:35 AM) Adelene: heh.
(7/30/2015 2:33:48 AM) Verdancy: Also literally everyone can commandeer a magic speedboat to go over water
(7/30/2015 2:33:55 AM) Adelene: *chuckle*
(7/30/2015 2:33:57 AM) Verdancy: And I can't turn it off
(7/30/2015 2:34:08 AM) Verdancy: There are deer riding taxiboats
(7/30/2015 2:34:12 AM) Adelene: DF horses don't have any more trouble with stairs than anyone else, but.
(7/30/2015 2:34:28 AM) Adelene: pft
(7/30/2015 2:34:30 AM) Verdancy: I think they could do stairs, though?
(7/30/2015 2:34:36 AM) Adelene: *shrug*
(7/30/2015 2:34:49 AM) Adelene: Plenty of room for them to not worry about it.
(7/30/2015 2:35:05 AM) Verdancy: Also, most of the "horses" are going to probably actually be unicorns
(7/30/2015 2:35:22 AM) Adelene: *nod, shrug*
(7/30/2015 2:35:45 AM) Andygal: DF has unicorns. Probably Lurker has never seen one tho.
(7/30/2015 2:36:18 AM) Adelene: yeah
(7/30/2015 2:36:29 AM) Verdancy: There's a potion to turn horses into unicorns, Lizzie can make it, unicorns are longer-lived and healthier and have magic and more finely-tuned telekinesis
(7/30/2015 2:37:31 AM) Adelene: Lurker is from an Untamed Wilds area, not a Joyous Wilds one.
(7/30/2015 2:37:33 AM) Verdancy: So the only ones that aren't unicorns are the horses that had a personal objection, plus the ones that avoid human society so thoroughly she can't talk to them
(7/30/2015 2:37:45 AM) Adelene: aw :)
(7/30/2015 2:37:59 AM) Verdancy: I don't know the difference there? Can you explain?
(7/30/2015 2:38:04 AM) Verdancy: ( :) )
(7/30/2015 2:38:44 AM) Adelene: One is Neutral Wild and the other is Good Wild.
(7/30/2015 2:38:53 AM) Adelene: ('good')
(7/30/2015 2:39:08 AM) Verdancy: augh
(7/30/2015 2:39:13 AM) Verdancy: "Good"?
(7/30/2015 2:39:22 AM) ***Verdancy has a sneaking suspicion she will not like this
(7/30/2015 2:40:10 AM) Adelene: 'good' areas get some plants that other areas don't, and a couple different kinds of animals, and uniorns who are Mean, and otherwise they're the same as neutral areas.
(7/30/2015 2:40:34 AM) Andygal: Evil areas are extremely evil
(7/30/2015 2:40:37 AM) Adelene: they're prettier and more of the wildlife tries to kill you, basically.
(7/30/2015 2:40:44 AM) Verdancy: pfft
(7/30/2015 2:40:49 AM) Adelene: Evil areas on the other hand are most definitely evil, yes.
(7/30/2015 2:41:07 AM) Verdancy: I kind of want to quotefile that
(7/30/2015 2:41:26 AM) Adelene: *chuckle*
(7/30/2015 2:42:01 AM) Verdancy: So she wouldn't have seen a unicorn, but if for some reason she runs into unicorns in Carp, they will be jerk unicorns.
(7/30/2015 2:42:10 AM) Adelene: yup.
(7/30/2015 2:45:05 AM) Andygal: Well benign good areas are pretty much exactly like benign neutral areas, except it has plants that provide expensive booze.
(7/30/2015 2:45:16 AM) Andygal: the savage good areas are the ones you have to watch out for.
(7/30/2015 2:45:17 AM) Verdancy: pfft
(7/30/2015 2:45:26 AM) Verdancy: Savage good?
(7/30/2015 2:45:30 AM) Verdancy: What is this game
(7/30/2015 2:45:53 AM) Adelene:
dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Surroundings(7/30/2015 2:47:35 AM) Andygal: in evil regions, everything is trying to kill you.
(7/30/2015 2:47:43 AM) Andygal: everything.
(7/30/2015 2:47:44 AM) Adelene: Including the weather.
(7/30/2015 2:47:49 AM) Andygal: Yes.
(7/30/2015 2:47:51 AM) Adelene: Sometimes.
(7/30/2015 2:47:55 AM) Adelene: Sometimes it's only blood!
(7/30/2015 2:48:13 AM) Verdancy: "automated death chambers"
(7/30/2015 2:48:24 AM) Adelene: ...yes?
(7/30/2015 2:48:28 AM) Verdancy: "making unicorn genocide in the name of profit an attractive proposition."
(7/30/2015 2:48:36 AM) Adelene: ...yes?
(7/30/2015 2:48:38 AM) Andygal: :)
(7/30/2015 2:48:55 AM) Verdancy: "Adult unicorns will primarily attempt to stab dwarves with their horns. Any hunters pursuing unicorns may come back with many internal injuries."
(7/30/2015 2:48:57 AM) Verdancy: I????
(7/30/2015 2:49:00 AM) Andygal: There was an incident involving mass merperson death chambers.
(7/30/2015 2:49:02 AM) Verdancy: Cannot blame then??
(7/30/2015 2:49:05 AM) Verdancy: To be honest??
(7/30/2015 2:49:07 AM) Verdancy: What
(7/30/2015 2:49:16 AM) Andygal: the creator nerfed the value of merperson bones after that
(7/30/2015 2:49:28 AM) Andygal: because that was going too far.
(7/30/2015 2:49:30 AM) Adelene: Welcome to Carp. There's /reasons/ the kobold left.
(7/30/2015 2:49:51 AM) Verdancy: welp
(7/30/2015 2:50:26 AM) Andygal: Singer is going to suggest nuking the evil regions from orbit, possibly.
(7/30/2015 2:50:32 AM) Andygal: because it's the only way to be sure.
(7/30/2015 2:50:32 AM) Adelene: And why, like, the absolute first thing she did before digging out her hidden underground refugee bunker was to have somebody seal it off from the outside.
(7/30/2015 2:54:03 AM) Andygal: Yes :)