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Post by Inkspot on Jul 2, 2015 17:23:10 GMT
You seem to be basing things off of conjectures rather than facts. In a very condescending manner.
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Post by gabriael on Jul 2, 2015 17:31:45 GMT
And what pray tell are the facts available to me?
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Post by Inkspot on Jul 2, 2015 17:36:59 GMT
One: people have bought from QDS, I have seen the results of it, and they have not exploded. Two: Leaf has explained what happened to QDS here. Three: The truth goddess has said that there have not been explosions. The truth goddess is incapable of telling rainbow flavored lies. Four: You have no reason to think that the multiverse works the way you think it does, and you keep insisting that it works like you think it does anyway.
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Post by gabriael on Jul 2, 2015 18:13:22 GMT
One could be coincidence. Two... I didn't see. Oops. Four: I have seen no evidence of the multiverse working differently than I think it does and I have seen one part of it functioning how I think it does. Nobody ever told me anything that indicated that the multiverse functioned differently than I think it does. See Attachment. And hoooo boy, three... this whole "condescending" thing is biting you in the ass here, as your stupid primitive pride keeps you from seeing how massively stupid you are. Worse, you will see my well meaning advice as an attack on your ridiculous "dignity" because I don't have any dignity and you therefore believe yourself smarter than me. For you see, there's this powerful magician who tells you everything they say is true and instead of presenting any evidence they are modifying your mind so you think they are unable to tell any lies. They probably smiled at you and were friendly and affable and respected your dignity and told you how smart you are and raped your mind into believing that you are smart. And you are like "Wow, they must be a truth goddess! After all they told me that water is wet and that's true!" There's this handy axiom we use in Toppled: "Truth will speak for itself, while lies need to be defended and dressed up nicely." Why the HELL would she need mind modifying magic to enforce things that are already true? That's what evidence is for! I can't believe how exasperating you people are! [[Attachment: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method]]
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Post by Inkspot on Jul 2, 2015 18:25:46 GMT
You do not actually know how many people have bought from QDS. You just know how many people publicly bought from QDS. That, I think, is not sufficient evidence.
You have seen no evidence that it does work the way you think it does. Because you do not leave your universe. Thank you for the attachment, I am well aware of what the scientific method is, and also the periodic table. Thank you ever so much for the refresher. I do so support learning new things.
And I don't even know how to deal with that middle paragraph. I understand what you mean, and do agree that I should not randomly trust people because they tell me to. However. I am inclined to trust a goddess who has displayed the following, in every context I have ever seen her: kindness, understanding, honesty, a sincere desire to see everyone happy, and consistently protecting me and everyone on this forum from the what you have so kindly described as 'mind rape.' I am not inclined to trust someone who thinks treating other people with dignity is a waste of time and who spends every second sentence mocking them, while not actually contributing a thing towards the multiverse's safety as a whole. Actions speak louder than words, I think, and you have done absolutely nothing. Or am I mistaken?
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Actuality
Newcomer
Posts: 4
World: Eclipse
Pronoun: he/him/his
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Post by Actuality on Jul 2, 2015 18:35:36 GMT
Gabriael, you have also presented no evidence for your position, which does not place your statements above those of any other forum-member, especially as you have displayed a tendency to make conjunctures and then treat them as facts.
Generally, when one wants to convince people of something, it tends to be more effective to provide evidence or be polite to those you are trying to convince. Both is generally more advantageous. You have done neither.
Esthfora's rainbow-truths have had no adverse effects or indeed noticeable changes beyond sometimes believing the relevant thing is true between forks exposed and not exposed to them. It is also provably not impossible to disbelieve them. I would send you the complete results, but, you see, a large portion of the details are private.
There are advantages to being able to make a statement and have it be believed without providing exhaustive evidence to prove it. One is that it saves the resources that might otherwise have to go to that. Another is that some of that evidence might be private, classified, or dangerous. A third is that sometimes you need to do something right now because there's a monster breaking down the door.
You seem to working off of the assumption that your premises are always true, which is horribly unscientific, I have no idea why you even bothered citing science to back you up. It is rather insulting; I am offended on the behalf of scientists.
It has also been proven that not all universes on this forum work in the same way, but I suspect the more evidence we provide you with of that, the higher you will set your standard to accept it. Also very unscientific of you. I don't know how you live that way.
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Post by gabriael on Jul 2, 2015 19:00:40 GMT
Thank you for the attachment, I am well aware of what the scientific method is, and also the periodic table. Thank you ever so much for the refresher. I do so support learning new things. I think you mean something else when you say scientific method than what was described in that article I give you. You certainly don't seem to do science like in that article. You do not actually know how many people have bought from QDS. You just know how many people publicly bought from QDS. That, I think, is not sufficient evidence. You have seen no evidence that it does work the way you think it does. I have made hypotheses on the evidence I have been presented with and a second set of hypotheses based on the things I have been told here on this Forum. There's not much evidence but it doesn't go against my hypotheses. I have made predictions and then asked questions and talked with Forumgoers and checked them against my hypotheses, discarded some and replaced them with new hypotheses. I have found a slice of the multiverse that largely consists of beings made of Wave functions corresponding to electrons and protons, things I thought were exclusive to Toppled. Moreover they show an incredible psychological compatibility. That is weird and I have concluded that Mother Starlight sorts for that stuff or can more easily connect to universes like that. Of course the most plausible hypothesis remains that someone has managed to mess with my access to Magic to fake this whole Forum. I am inclined to trust a goddess who has displayed the following, in every context I have ever seen her: kindness, understanding, honesty, a sincere desire to see everyone happy, and consistently protecting me and everyone on this forum from the what you have so kindly described as 'mind rape.' But it doesn't matter what she displays! I personally haven't seen anything to that effect. I am not inclined to trust someone who thinks treating other people with dignity is a waste of time and who spends every second sentence mocking them. And I would really love to hear your reasoning for that. I doubt it's something that has come into contact with science. It's sometimes applicable in a single culture or even a single species, but humans are emphatically not one of them. Because you do not leave your universe. While not actually contributing a thing towards the multiverse's safety as a whole. Actions speak louder than words, I think, and you have done absolutely nothing. Or am I mistaken? I'm not exactly able to do anything but write on this Forum and this whole discussion started cause I was concerned about the safety of the multiverse as a whole. Because I can't leave my universe and ensure that safety myself. If you have some way to get me out of my Universe I would happily leave my Universe and I would certainly happily contribute to the multiverse's safety!
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Post by Advocate on Jul 2, 2015 19:12:24 GMT
Gabriael, you claim to have outgrown the need for dignity and respect, but every time someone suggests that you might be wrong or flawed in any way, you immediately assume that the only reason they would think that is that they must be too stupid and primitive to understand the simple obvious truth that you're awesome and right and they're stupid and wrong. This seems very much like the exact sort of bad thing that comes from a need for dignity. I think you're not as humble as you think you are, and you can't see how arrogant you are because you're too blinded by your own pride.
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MagicPhD
Poster
Posts: 95
World: Fractal
Pronoun: he
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Post by MagicPhD on Jul 2, 2015 19:33:03 GMT
Here are some additional facts: - My universe has both antimatter and matter. It is possible to convert one to the other using magic.
- There is an apparent imbalance between matter and antimatter in my universe.1
- When I went out of my universe to Lioncourt's party, I detected no antimatter before I went through the gate. I did not detect any appreciable amount of antimatter while I was there.2
So we have several possibilities. A: The multiverse has an imbalance of matter and antimatter, and most of it is matter. B: The multiverse is balanced -B1: Mother Starlight connects primarily to matter universes. -B2: The multiverse is balanced, and we got obscenely lucky when gathering people from many universes. -B3: Safe multiversal travel spells flip the incoming person/object to whichever is more common in the destination universe -B4: Those from antimatter universes where quietly asked not to come, as people in charge of safety noticed the potential issue C: And the many possibilities I didn't think of in the past 10 minutes. I agree that which of these is true is an interesting question about the nature of the forum and the multiverse. I think that B2 is unlikely, and could have been a risk, if not for the powerful information gathering capabilities of those handing safety, who would have detected and resolved the issue. 1This could be because we haven't found the rest of the antimatter, or matter is actually more common for some reason. 2:I brought a few detectors in my pockets. Air was analyzed and determined to be 'matter', not antimatter.
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Post by gabriael on Jul 2, 2015 20:02:29 GMT
Gabriael, you have also presented no evidence for your position, which does not place your statements above those of any other forum-member, especially as you have displayed a tendency to make conjunctures and then treat them as facts. Generally, when one wants to convince people of something, it tends to be more effective to provide evidence or be polite to those you are trying to convince. Both is generally more advantageous. You have done neither. But I did present evidence for my positions. There are advantages to being able to make a statement and have it be believed without providing exhaustive evidence to prove it. One is that it saves the resources that might otherwise have to go to that. Another is that some of that evidence might be private, classified, or dangerous. A third is that sometimes you need to do something right now because there's a monster breaking down the door. I have done everything asked of me, so your monster thing is irrelevant. I have taken most things at face value, but trusting someone who modifies minds is kinda a big No-No. You seem to working off of the assumption that your premises are always true, which is horribly unscientific, I have no idea why you even bothered citing science to back you up. It is rather insulting; I am offended on the behalf of scientists. Eh, in Toppled science works like that. It's called "stick-your-neck-out-and-make-a-prediction-or-stop-pretending-to-believe-in-your-theory"-Theory. You pretend your theory is true and make predictions from there until the theory is disproven. It's also important to Act as if your theory is true. There's this funny story about an invisible inaudible dragon whose existence is impossible to prove, so you could just as well act as if there wasn't a dragon. Then there's a second story where the existence of the dragon IS proven, but the one who proves it doesn't act as if the new hypotheses is true, so he's eaten by the dragon. It has also been proven that not all universes on this forum work in the same way, but I suspect the more evidence we provide you with of that, the higher you will set your standard to accept it. Also very unscientific of you. I don't know how you live that way. Yeeees. I know not all universes work the same way. But the ones on this Forum still largely consist of planets made of Wave functions corresponding to electrons and protons. Where the fuck have I said something different? And there's another part of what I call science: When you provide me with more evidence I will CHANGE MY HYPOTHESIS which means I will start for different evidence to disprove my new hypotheses, maybe requiring a higher standard. Because a centerpiece of MY science is being wrong and accepting that you can be wrong, something you can't do because of your ridiculous dignity. If using dignity means that I can't discard fallacious hypotheses, I don't understand how you can live that way. But another saying in Toppled is that "Obviously what the other guy does works in some way or he would be dead."
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Post by Grigori on Jul 2, 2015 20:04:24 GMT
That seems like an eminently reasonable position, MagicPhD.
Speaking personally, I regularly encounter people blinded by their own worldviews; it's an occupational hazard among the Inspired, and one that the Peerage is designed to work against. Not incidentally, I also regularly have to work with people considerably more arrogant than Gabriel; I don't find him especially unusual in that regard, though I would not describe him as 'humble'.
The hard thing to do on encountering something truly strange is to take it into account at all. It's hard for most people to actually look at evidence with fresh eyes, instead of simply looking for a mental box to file it away into (regardless of how well that box fits!).
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Post by Mother Starlight on Jul 2, 2015 20:17:07 GMT
Gabriael, I appreciate that you don't feel much need for dignity yourself, but most people do want to be treated with respect. I'd appreciate it if you would try to accommodate that. Things generally run more smoothly when people are treated the way they want to be treated.
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Post by gabriael on Jul 2, 2015 20:24:56 GMT
My universe has both antimatter and matter. It is possible to convert one to the other using magic. You see, this is actually something constructive. You sir are sane. All hypotheses except the "We were extremely lucky." one are plausible. There's two matter and two antimatter universes in Toppled. In a matter universe a supermajority of particles are matter and antimatter doesn't last long because of that. You can convert one into the other and vice versa with Magic, but the difference between the number of matter particles and the amount of antimatter particles is otherwise conserved. Gabriael, you claim to have outgrown the need for dignity and respect, but every time someone suggests that you might be wrong or flawed in any way, you immediately assume that the only reason they would think that is that they must be too stupid and primitive to understand the simple obvious truth that you're awesome and right and they're stupid and wrong. This seems very much like the exact sort of bad thing that comes from a need for dignity. I think you're not as humble as you think you are, and you can't see how arrogant you are because you're too blinded by your own pride. No. I do not actually assume that every time. I am wrong and flawed. I often do stupid things! I only assume people are stupid and primitive when they imply that they aren't, because I don't believe in individuals who aren't wrong and flawed in some way. Your dignity prevents people from pointing out your flaws, meaning you can't get better. If you think I have any flaws, please let's hear them goddammit! I'd like to correct them. But I don't guarantee that we will agree what's a flaw and what's a feature.
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Post by Inkspot on Jul 2, 2015 20:28:54 GMT
Gabriael, I feel that you come to whatever conclusion is most convenient for you at the time. You make hypotheses, you admit, but then you fail to test them and then treat them as theories and just parade around considering them fact. You show no initiative in testing them yourself, and yet expect us all to fall in line and listen to you.
I am disinclined to trust you based on how you treat other people, because of how you consistently brush off anyone that disagrees with you, and don't treat people how they'd like to be treated. In my experience, those who are unwilling to listen to others and then treat them badly are bad. As in, take over the world, torture people for long periods of time for their own benefit, unquestionably stifle every sentient being on the planet. I am not comparing you to them, however. I am presenting evidence towards the idea that I have very good reasons for distrusting people that casually treat others badly, which from my perspective, you have displayed.
It is obvious that Esthfora has absurd powers. If she wanted to, I have every reason to believe that she could turn me into a vegetable, literal or figurative, at any point in time, no matter where I was in the multiverse. She has not. I don't believe she ever will, because I have met her. Instead, with her power, she has helped me and everyone she's met every chance she gets.
Making baseless statements with a lack of evidence about a subject you have failed to do research on doesn't strike me as helping the multiverse. It strikes me as the opposite. I do not want to go gallivanting across the multiverse blowing bubbles in my underwear because no one has directly proven that such a thing is stupid.
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Post by gabriael on Jul 2, 2015 20:41:08 GMT
Gabriael, I appreciate that you don't feel much need for dignity yourself, but most people do want to be treated with respect. I'd appreciate it if you would try to accommodate that. Things generally run more smoothly when people are treated the way they want to be treated. I'll try... But it's hard! I see so many atrocities committed every day because of pride that it deeply offends me. In the history of this Earth alone millions of people were subjected to horrible tortures because of pointless differences in opinion or people don't wanting to admit they are wrong. People were burned alive because they embarrassed a "detailed design" Religion who thought that the star orbited the planet and couldn't stomach the loss of dignity when someone found evidence to the contrary. Personally I'd rather ruffle a few feathers than people stopping to post here because they weren't prepared to admit their own flaws and got themselves killed. Can we still continue to squabble here in the Petty Squabbling Thread? Can I invite people into this thread by PM or will that get on their nerves too much?
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