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Post by Botanical Engineer on May 19, 2015 21:02:14 GMT
Oh, okay. I still don't think it ever gets cold enough for water to solidify, though. Much colder than the usual air temperature sounds uncomfortable to live in.
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Test Bed
Poster
Posts: 39
World: Chaeral
Pronoun: she/her
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Post by Test Bed on May 20, 2015 5:23:52 GMT
Oh! I'm sorry. I misread Ascendancy as University. So I'd assumed almost everyone there would be students. Is a University what you call any place that has students? Or is it something more specific? It sounds like something more specific. I'm still pretty surprised if that works though. Because at the ratio you described, in a population of 250 people, around 100 shok'ush would all be surviving from the empulse of around 3 humans. It doesn't work like that. Why would you think it works like that?! What would the other 147 humans even be doing?! Stars above, I don't know what you're imagining, but it is almost certainly wrong. I'm not sure what very nonmutual cultural background assumption we're both missing by a dayspan here, but there obviously is one. Somewhere. Um, in any given social circle, it usually takes extenuating circumstances for every shok'ush to not have fed from every human; variations on not doing that are usually snubs, within a social circle. Actually going hungry isn't something most anyone ever has to actually worry about. Um, shok'ush don't age (most erovores don't), and the way they reproduce is still weird even to me and I grew up around them. Kima even agrees that it's weird; its not like anything else anywhere; other erovores reproduce by fission. There are currently only four exact ages any given shok'ush on Meridian could be (if you include the genesi; the actual population here are either firstborn, exodite, or ascendant). On the other hand, I have never met anyone who was the same age as me. There are more humans escaping their natural lifespan every generation, and children are kind of rare, since you kind of have to go well out of your way to have a kid. Wombriders are freely provided, and have no drawbacks. And a vitalcall, which is the positive-third-channel-green-aetherlight power that causes true (if slow, but other powers can speed it up a lot) regeneration, also negates pregnancies. Does any of that narrow it down? Okay, so humans can also share the empulse with each other, not just shok'ush, so a small group of people who generate the empulse the shok'ush eat and communicate with can also share some of that with all the other humans so pretty much everyone can understand each other? No, humans can't share empulse with each other - well, we can but it has no effect on resonant links and it requires mutual simultaneous similar-intensity orgasms. Anyway, you don't need a direct link to understand someone, and humans can of course talk to each other just fine the normal way, with voices and ears. Also, shok'ush can understand an unlinked human if there is a linked human in earshot. There's no way for an unlinked human to understand a shok'ush, but should two such people meet, want to talk and discover they can't, usually they just resolve that in the obvious way. I understand better now! I imagine that it would be really upsetting if something I was used to doing because it was nice to do suddenly became rude. You would probably be fine if you touched people anyway, because you wouldn't get any information from doing so. So if you ever do come to my world, you would probably be fine in that field! I'd still worry about it, but that's good to know! I will hug you if given the chance.
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Post by Lioncourt on May 20, 2015 21:59:19 GMT
Um, in any given social circle, it usually takes extenuating circumstances for every shok'ush to not have fed from every human; variations on not doing that are usually snubs, within a social circle. Actually going hungry isn't something most anyone ever has to actually worry about. Also, shok'ush can understand an unlinked human if there is a linked human in earshot. There's no way for an unlinked human to understand a shok'ush, but should two such people meet, want to talk and discover they can't, usually they just resolve that in the obvious way. So you're telling me that almost every sho'kush will have fed from almost every human they know, almost every human will have been fed on by almost every sho'kush they know, and these two populations are fairly closely integrated? I must be misreading something here somehow.
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Hadassah
Regular
Posts: 107
World: Pantheon
Pronoun: She/Her
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Post by Hadassah on May 21, 2015 1:05:22 GMT
Pantheon is a world of many gods and many people and many many cultures. I do not think that I could describe all the cultures in the world I have. However, if there is anything that I am surprised to see so common on this blog is how common and casually mental influence is used on the forum. (Even though both events were completely benign and friendly) (The following statements is purely an explanation from my perspective and should not be considered a complete comprehensive representation of anyone else in Pantheon). Freedom of Belief is a core tenet of my world. Freedom of Belief is an almost universal experience, and anywhere this freedom is violated regularly is considered unconscionably barbaric. Let me explain what I mean by Freedom of Belief, which extends beyond the religious experience, though it does retain its roots in freedom of religion. Freedom of Belief covers everything. People should, according to Pantheon's most common morals, have the right to believe whatever they want. It is freedom of opinion, freedom of concept, and freedom of archetype. If my supervisor wanted to believe that all cats are deformed, souless dogs, they could. (My supervisor does not believe this, it is an example.) No one has the right to tell them otherwise. Others can disagree or argue, but they cannot threaten or deny my supervisor their right to believe. Even when slavery existed in the United States, slaves were allowed to believe what they wanted. This does not invalidate laws and statutes, if someone breaks the law in their belief, they can continue to believe whatever, but they might still get arrested. This Freedom of Belief is such an important tenant for several reasons. One, when the gods came back into the world six hundred years ago, there were a few gods that considered worshipers permanent. They refused to let their people decide to worship another god, and would smite them dead by changing their minds. These malicious, possessive deities began to band together to begin forced conversion and conquest. In response, the other gods banded together with most of the civilized world at the time, and slew the Dark Pantheon in 1742 CE, (322 D.E.) After that united front, it was tradition that freedom of belief was to be considered standard amongst all people. Even deities do not use any supernatural powers to exert influence over people. These fears of force conversion or false belief were belabored by fears that some demihumans could influence the mind and bend people against their belief. Demihumans that had powers involving the mind (psions) were slaughtered and killed as monstrous beings when they were discovered for centuries, even though no psionic ability to this day has been discovered to have any more ability to influence the mind than telepathy, or talking directly to someone else inside their head. This fear still persists to this day, though it is considered demiism and not quite as common nor is it nearly as deadly, which is good (in my opinion). Also, recently (one year ago) our world was assaulted by an alien deity from another universe that used an infectious language to force people to believe in and worship them. It is considered one of the most terrible single events in history, and has brought the fears of mental influence back into the common zeitgeist. I was part of the major cleanup group and border patrol due to my immunity to the virus (though the event was rather traumatic to experience, even if I was not directly influenced). Millions were lost. --- Anyway, I was talking about Freedom of Belief. My apologies if I was rude to anyone when I expressed discomfort at the extra-forum influences. I just wanted to express that being influenced like that, while not painful or threatening on a personal level, is deeply disturbing to most people of Pantheon (and myself personally, even though I am not considered a person). It prevents me, or "influences" me away from, forming my own opinions or beliefs. Communication is generally considered to be always muddled by inference, personal cultural experiences, translation barriers, mistakes or simple opinion. To cut through those natural influences by magic is alien and very very uncommon to Pantheon. Obviously, I don't know the cultures of other worlds as well as I would like, as I am surprised one of the few uncomfortable with this sort of thing. I hope that other interuniversal standards are not likewise disparate. I don't know how well Pantheon will be received if being assaulted physically is treated as cavalierly as being assaulted mentally. I do want to apologize if I come off as rude again, and I don't mean to insult anyone (though I stand by my beliefs wholeheartedly, I would never try to impose them on others). I just wanted to explain Pantheon's position on this so as to explain why I have acted so (possibly) rude. --- Anyway, in answer to Meletiti in the Appreciation post: That is precisely the point, though - it should not have produced a compulsion. The effect should have been identical to being spoken to by someone you understand well - often profoundly disturbing, unfortunately (I did not quite succeed in producing imperfect, but still useful, comprehension), but only a "compulsion" insofar as any communication with an unsecure computer like a human mind is a compulsion. ... Er. Is particularly good (purely natural) charisma considered mind control in your truth? In that case I most definitely apologize. Perfect comprehension is a form of mental compulsion by our rules. It forced me to assume an opinion that you are trying to communicate peacefully. Instead of coming to my own conclusion on your meaning, I must second guess my inclination to believe, with your perfect insight that you mean no harm and you know nothing of our worlds, and then triple guess that because I am not certain I am being too skeptical that I can't believe what you are saying because that is ridiculous, you said that you meant no harm exactly the way I'd want to hear it... Even if your message was true and honest, I have to maintain skepticism that your story may have been hiding something else, or a lie, even as believe I understood your intent perfectly. Particularly good charisma is acceptable because it don't force belief. Perfectly good charisma is something that can only be attained by removing the receiver's ability to not-disbelieve. And I do apologize, really I do. I wanted to explain my position, but I won't deny that I am under a fair amount of (emotional) stress right now. I am under very high supervision now that I have been mentally influenced twice by this forum. (I think they are more frightened about how easily the multiverse can influence belief in a souless object without normal natural human mental weaknesses.) (I believe) They are almost certain that there is something about this forum that is compelling me to defend it's use. I had to agree to several concessions to maintain access so I could request assistance on making a geiger counter and to prove that I wasn't being negatively influenced (I agreed to a Mantle of Truth while using and when talking about this forum which makes it so that I cannot tell direct lies within some range of error, thus all these parenthetical notes). (The Mantle apparently makes me more chatty.) Fortunately, if they decide the forum has become safe, I think that the safety precautions should be good enough to save others any hassle, should they decide to remove my probation (though, given the choice, I would rather continue to exist).
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Post by Andrew on May 21, 2015 1:19:54 GMT
Hadassah, I am very much against most mental assaults. I am fine with Esthfora because it appears she can only rainbow-truth things which are actually true (and it still does not force belief). I am fine with Meletiti Entelecheiai’s previous messages (though glad he stopped) because it only makes things easier to understand. (I’m still not sure why you aren’t, because it sounds like he could have said “I come in peace” with that forced-understanding, and then proceeded to release memetic hazards or dangerously-bad advice). I would not be fine with, say, a love potion being applied to a post or something like that.
Why is the Mantle of Truth not considered mental assault? It forces others to believe that you believe what you say, does it not?
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Post by Botanical Engineer on May 21, 2015 2:09:06 GMT
Is a University what you call any place that has students? Or is it something more specific? It sounds like something more specific. It is someplace people go to learn and teach things. The people there to learn things are students. There isn't one in my town, but some of the bigger towns have them. It is not much more specific than that. I'm still pretty surprised if that works though. Because at the ratio you described, in a population of 250 people, around 100 shok'ush would all be surviving from the empulse of around 3 humans. It doesn't work like that. Why would you think it works like that?! What would the other 147 humans even be doing?! Stars above, I don't know what you're imagining, but it is almost certainly wrong. I'm not sure what very nonmutual cultural background assumption we're both missing by a dayspan here, but there obviously is one. Somewhere. Um, in any given social circle, it usually takes extenuating circumstances for every shok'ush to not have fed from every human; variations on not doing that are usually snubs, within a social circle. Actually going hungry isn't something most anyone ever has to actually worry about. Does any of that narrow it down? I would expect it to work like that because in a situation with 250 people, there would be 150 humans. Around 5 out of 250 humans would have any interest in empulse-generation, which would be 3 humans out of a population of 150 humans. I wouldn't even be sure of 2 of those, because around 2 in 250 people would actually want to generate empulse, and 3 in 250 people would be apathetic but willing, which would lead to about 1 human in 150 who wanted to generate empulse and about 2 humans in 150 who would possibly be willing to, but could also not want to. Although, if otherwise shok'ush might die, or stop being able to talk, or not be able to morphweave, humans might be more willing to generate empulse if they didn't really want to? Or if someone would be afraid of not being able to talk to a shok'ush friend, so they might generate empulse they didn't really want to in order to not lose their friend? Is that what happens in your world? Okay, so humans can also share the empulse with each other, not just shok'ush, so a small group of people who generate the empulse the shok'ush eat and communicate with can also share some of that with all the other humans so pretty much everyone can understand each other? No, humans can't share empulse with each other - well, we can but it has no effect on resonant links and it requires mutual simultaneous similar-intensity orgasms. Anyway, you don't need a direct link to understand someone, and humans can of course talk to each other just fine the normal way, with voices and ears. Also, shok'ush can understand an unlinked human if there is a linked human in earshot. There's no way for an unlinked human to understand a shok'ush, but should two such people meet, want to talk and discover they can't, usually they just resolve that in the obvious way. I had thought that humans who generated empulse might share empulse with humans who didn't, so shok'ush could still communicate with them, but it seems this is not how it works. I understand better now! I imagine that it would be really upsetting if something I was used to doing because it was nice to do suddenly became rude. You would probably be fine if you touched people anyway, because you wouldn't get any information from doing so. So if you ever do come to my world, you would probably be fine in that field! I'd still worry about it, but that's good to know! I will hug you if given the chance. Okay, I'm glad the reassurance helped! It is possible I could warn people you were from another world and couldn't actually read your patterns? I have a weak preference this forum stay secret, but if you were visiting and it would help make you less nervous, I'd be willing to weaken the secrecy. I like you, and will reciprocate the hug!
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Post by Andrew on May 21, 2015 2:14:30 GMT
I think something might have been mistranslated about how empulse is generated, given our vastly different biologies.
Botanical engineer, I think empulse is generated with sexual activity. Sexual activity is the way mammals (like most humans not on your world) reproduce, but humans usually engage in it for pleasure instead of for reproduction. Far more than 2% of the population is interested in sexual activity.
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Test Bed
Poster
Posts: 39
World: Chaeral
Pronoun: she/her
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Post by Test Bed on May 21, 2015 7:02:00 GMT
So you're telling me that almost every sho'kush will have fed from almost every human they know, almost every human will have been fed on by almost every sho'kush they know, and these two populations are fairly closely integrated? I must be misreading something here somehow. I don't think so. It's not usually everyone of the other species one knows (unless you've lived in a small community for a long time), but among friends, and between people who meet and interact not through mutual acquaintances, yes. What about that is so surprising? I would expect it to work like that because in a situation with 250 people, there would be 150 humans. Around 5 out of 250 humans would have any interest in empulse-generation, which would be 3 humans out of a population of 150 humans. Ohhhh, yeah, I think this is a plants vs. animals thing like Andrew guessed. I can absolutely assure you that out of a hundred and fifty (Chaeral) humans, it would not be surprising for all but three of them to generate enough empulse to sustain a shok'ush or three just as a byproduct of a healthy baseline of sexual desire. I had thought that humans who generated empulse might share empulse with humans who didn't, so shok'ush could still communicate with them, but it seems this is not how it works. Resonant is completely a shok'ush thing. It is not a thing humans can do with empulse, it is a thing shok'ush do with empulse. Humans can't even sense the emotional content empulse carries, which as I think I mentioned, shok'ush taste intensely.
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Hadassah
Regular
Posts: 107
World: Pantheon
Pronoun: She/Her
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Post by Hadassah on May 21, 2015 10:23:37 GMT
Hadassah, I am very much against most mental assaults. I am fine with Esthfora because it appears she can only rainbow-truth things which are actually true (and it still does not force belief). I am fine with Meletiti Entelecheiai’s previous messages (though glad he stopped) because it only makes things easier to understand. (I’m still not sure why you aren’t, because it sounds like he could have said “I come in peace” with that forced-understanding, and then proceeded to release memetic hazards or dangerously-bad advice). I would not be fine with, say, a love potion being applied to a post or something like that. Why is the Mantle of Truth not considered mental assault? It forces others to believe that you believe what you say, does it not? I am not even sure that Meletiti (who appears to be very friendly overall) could have said "I come in peace" and then followed with terrible advice or dangerous materials. Being comprehendable doesn't mean you can't lie... I don't think. (Discourse and tautology theology are not my specialty so everything that follows is personal and should probably be taken as opinion) However, it removed my ability to form my own first self impression. I am fairly insecure as a (person) conversationalist, so I have to usually second guess myself and everyone else when they say some thing. I am (usually) confident that I figure out most conversation correctly. I couldn't do that with Meletiti's message, as I was compelled to act as a blank slate. My past experiences, my impressions, my usual lens of the world was bypassed by a single beam of light, penetrating through all the usual filters and personal bias. I could not refuse what Meletiti wanted to say, even if I would naturally assume the best. My usual (initial) bemusement didn't exist, which is disconcerting. The Mantle of Truth is not a mental assault for the same reason that physical assault is, by and large, not assault by way of consent. I'd rather be here (and be more honest) than not. I could chose to leave, but just like how boxers agree to being wounded for the sake of the fight, I am agreeing to be honest and true when using the services of the truth deities (and I can rest assured that I can't be forced to say anything against my will by the freedom deities assisting). And no one is obligated to believe me here on Pantheon, nor does the Mantle extend beyond talking on or about the forum. I am not even compulsed to say anything on the forum, as I can just not respond, or delete any comments that I feel are too personal. Even if I were obligated to speak the truth on Pantheon, no one is obligated to believe me and the Mantle is absolutely fallible (because it is being used on a fallible being if nothing else). Truth is perfectly relative, but in time and meaning. (I believe) there is nearly no statement that can't be falsified or rendered untrue under specific context. Even basic statements, such as 2+2=4, are absolutely fallible, especially given the nature of a multiverse that contains untold amounts of rules and laws (let alone places where Base 4 or lower may be used as the standard count). The Mantle of Truth shouldn't be affecting anyone else here on the forum. It is a personal requirement, and my words should simply appear as text (or whatever the appropriate format) to everyone. And if you believe everything I say just because I *claimed* to have a Mantle of Truth put on me, then I would say that you should not try to buy a car on Pantheon. The mantle is not a work requirement, per se. It is a requirement of the deities I asked for assistance. It is a form of payment rendered, not something that makes my job easier (if only). If anything, the Mantle makes my job harder, as my supervisors are simply more suspicious that I am either speaking in metaphors to lie, or that I am so completely convinced of my truth that I can be wrong under a Mantle about this forum. Anyway, I am (almost completely) convinced that I am coming off as more a jerk than anything here. My sincere apologies for this.
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Post by Botanical Engineer on May 21, 2015 14:51:26 GMT
Andrew, I thought that the most important thing for empulse-generation was people having orgasms, which about 5 of 250 Garden humans do, further broken down into 3 of 5 near-apathetic but not opposed to it, and 2 of 5 strongly wanting to. If it was based on sexual activities, more people would generate empulse, but they would all be people specifically intending to have children, because otherwise there wouldn't even be a point to pollination.
Test Bed, Yes, it looks like it is probably a difference between Garden humans and animal humans. I'm glad there are enough people interested in generating empulse in your world that shok'ush are not in danger.
Hadassah, To me, it does not seem like you are being mean. It seems like you are upset by things that other people are not usually upset by, because of a different culture and assumptions on your world. I'm not sure what you seem like to others, but I do not think you are being a mean person here.
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Post by Andrew on May 21, 2015 15:52:03 GMT
Botanical engineer, orgasms are a part of sexual activity. Animal-humans routinely go to various lengths to prevent the sexual activity from actually producing children, because the activity itself is enjoyable and not everybody wants children when they want to have sex.
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Post by Meletiti Entelecheiai on May 21, 2015 18:37:50 GMT
Hadassah: No, it's fine, I think I understand now. My apologies; I simply hadn't considered that people might want to keep those biases. My primary ethical concern with regards to that spell has always been that it treads on personal territory and private thoughts for the listener; I will add this to the list of things to fix. (Hm. That description, of a beam of light, gives me an idea. Perhaps I could blur the effect...) In the interests of honesty: it is possible for me to lie while under the spell of perfect comprehension, as it only translates the message, but I would have to be very careful doing so, as any "tells" that I was lying that made it into the message would themselves be perfectly translated.
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Hadassah
Regular
Posts: 107
World: Pantheon
Pronoun: She/Her
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Post by Hadassah on May 22, 2015 9:44:29 GMT
In the interests of honesty: it is possible for me to lie while under the spell of perfect comprehension, as it only translates the message, but I would have to be very careful doing so, as any "tells" that I was lying that made it into the message would themselves be perfectly translated. Thank you for telling me. I appreciate knowing that (at least I didn't report myself without good reason). I do wish to inform everyone here (in the interests of honesty) that I have killed someone. I am not sure if I mentioned before offhand, but I ended the life of the mad rabbi that created me, by intentionally exploiting a verbal loophole in his command. Locally in Pantheon, it is legally considered a mixture of divine retribution, equipment malfunction, and accidental death. I am not a person (legally) and I am not culpable for killing someone (though if I were to do it again without epic circumstances, I will be destroyed). Personally, I do not deny that I had been looking for a way to stop the rabbi from continuing his planned genocide for some time, so depending on cultural standards, it could be considered premeditated murder. Anyway, I just wanted to be honest and forthright, even without the Mantle of Truth, I feel some guilt that I may have abused anyone's trust here on the forum. I am not part of many other welcoming communities, as I am not well regarded by many of my coworkers because of my past, and I am not trusted because of who made me. I don't want to inadvertently create another climate of distrust around myself by not being forthright. I'd rather that happen because I was too honest.
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Post by Meletiti Entelecheiai on May 22, 2015 9:58:38 GMT
I'm sorry that happened to you.
To kill is not a good deed. There are none who deserve to die.
Unfortunately, the world is not so kind as to forbid that it be the best of all bad options. It is a sad thing that you did, but at least in my opinion, it was the right thing to do nonetheless. I, at least, will bear you no ill will for such a thing. I can hardly throw stones, regardless.
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Post by Andrew on May 23, 2015 0:17:30 GMT
Hadassah, you’ve said that you are on probation before being legally recognized as sentient. Can you please describe this process a bit further, if it isn’t too personal? How long does this usually last? Do you have any provisional rights in the meantime? Are you legally owned by the United States government or the mad rabbi’s estate (that would be awful, still being associated with him like that), or not owned by anybody (obviously the ideal), or what?
Again, feel free to ignore me if these questions are too personal. I would like to understand your situation better, but not make you uncomfortable.
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